Amoral atheists

[McCulloch]

In another thread

Nonsense is thinking that an atheist can have a moral position on anything but self-centered wants.

This is a common misunderstanding among Christians. Since they believe that their God is the source of all moral values, then how can someone who does not believe in the supernatural have moral values.
So, let's debate.
AlAyeti seems to have taken the position that atheists are by definition amoral and self-centered.
I will take the position that atheism is consistent with moral values and is not necessarily self-centered.

[McCulloch]

Other mammals do not engage in homosexual acts.

Perhaps i missed something earlier here, but i just wanted to comment on this.

McCulloch, this is incorrect, several different animals openly show/consume in what we would define as homosexuality. So how do you mean ?

I completely agree with you. One striking example would be Bonobo Chimpanzees, who are genetically closer to Humans than any other primate.

[bernee51]

Bernee,

I am not angry.

This statement in my experience often precedes a very defensive argument - primarily because the exact opposite is true. We'll see

Please relax. You're scaring me.

An open book.

You should perhaps try to find the reasons in your psyche that causes words fron cyberspace to elicit a fear response in you.

Relax...an hour of meditation and self-enquiry and 2 hours of practising or teaching yoga daily keeps me very relaxed.

But thanks for your concern.

The Crusades were in reponse to being attacked.

Muslims started the war, responed to by the Crusades. That is a fact.

So the Muslims stormed the gates of paris and London? The Muslims, in fact, were reclaiming what was then, and arguably is nw, part of greater Persia. What was being 'attacked' was the residue of imperalism. Sort of like the American War of Independence.

The Crusades were financed and supported on the basis that they were upholding christnndom. The were atrocities based on religiousity.

Do you want to counter my claim that the JCI god, your god, is the most blood thirsty tyrant to have graced this planet. He personally carried out or instigated or approved of genocide, mirder, kidnap, rape.

I doubt you will, because it is all in your favourite book of myths.

I have much experience with what the sex education known as Pedophilia and what it has done to many people.

I suggested counselling.

An Atheist declares something can come from nothing.

Wrong...an atheist declares a lack of belief in a deity (often a specific deity)

How and where does morality come from in this perspective?

It doesn't because your perspective is wrong.

That is not a fair question?

It is neither fair or unfair - it is nonsensical because it is based on an incorrect supposition

Empiricism is what we can see, hear and test. I have heard you, see your posts and have put it to the test!

In your mind only...certainly not in any of your 'arguments'

Too bad if it causes you discomfort.

It causes me no discomfort whatsover...the opposite however could be true given the defensive nature of your posts and the fact that you admit to 'being scared' by me.

Believe that I don't exist.

Can you define 'I' in that statement?

What exists is a Self, attached to an ego which in turn is attached to a mythic belief sytem that provides meaning an legitimacy to your 'life'.

Any time you want to add up the amounts of people killed in the name of religion to those killed by Atheism in Russia alone by Lenin and Stalin, my calculator is waiting!

The more often you repeat that fallacy doesn't make it any more factual. Has you calculator totted up yor god's hit list?

Christians are the shining example for the world as to how to handle lying and misrepresentation of beliefs. Ever heard of Denominations? As in peacefully co-existing in America.

I'll leave others to decide wheterh there is 'peace between the denominations' in the christian nation of America.

"Is a traitor a member of that which he is betraying?"

You know exactly what I mean . . .

I know exactly what you mean..I don't inderstand the relevance of the question to the debate at hand.

I, at least see you as bright.

Aww, flattery...another passive aggressive defensive technique

Also, angry and frustrated that someone is challenging your beliefs,

Anger is based in shame...it is shame with the desire for retribution. You have not shamed me, nor is retribution on my agenda.

As to challenging my beliefs - I live for the challenge. I just spent a month in an ashram doing the four types of yoga (karma, bhakti, raja and jnana) - radical self challenge.

Do you challenge your beliefs? I think not. All you seek is support...support alone will not bring growth.

Maximum growth (evolution) occurs at the border of challenge and support.

but I do respect your being here.

The feeling is mutual.

Now, answer the question.

Why? Of what relevance is it?

The answer is very telling of empirical truth!!!

Can you prove to me that there is any such thing as 'empirical truth"

And while you are in a 'proving' frame of mind...

Can you prove that the historical Jesus (and his alledged acts) are based on 'empirical evidence'

[AlAyeti]

Bernee,

That little picture you display is not designed to cause fear? Looks a suicide bomber to me. I wish it didn't carry that connotation but it does.

Sarcasm about "you scaring me." No Christian fears a non-Christian. How could they? Polycarp and Perpetua are as much my heroes as they are my examples.

Your attempt at pop-psycholgy is typical. It's like homosexuals accusing anti-Gay Agenda proponents of being closeted homosexuals. "Boo!" Doesn't work.

My pop-psychology is based of course on experiencing atheists. Atheism may very well be the basis of the psychotic and of course sociopathic state in a person.

Your view of the Muslim conquest of the middle east is horrible. If they are justified by killing in the name of allah then they are just as bloodthirsty as any other religionists. And yet their murders continue to this day, while "enlightened" Christianty has chosen to admit their wrongs and embrace their real "religion." Muslim's only continue killing because the Qu'Ran and of course allah and Muhammad, does indeed give them the license.

But your perspective that Persians using war and religion to advance a political agenda and conquering innocents? Hmm, where have I heard that before?

I assume you are meditating doing Yoga, a religious practice, to keep yourself well. Well from what?

How do we really know what Muhammad was told. The words of Gabriel are filtered not by the direct hearing but by Muhammad talking about it and others writing it down. Muhammad wrote down nothing.

Whereas the New Testament changed nothing of the already existing stories (the ones Mo got wrong somehow) in the Bible as it was handled so well by the Israelites.

The Bible and the New Testament has weathered the historical storm rather well. Pilate and Caiaphas were once thought as myth. The scientst's spade proved otherwise. The details of what Jesus went through align themselves well with medical and historical facts. There is little to doubt that the writers of the Gospels are accurate.

Your math on the deaths caused by Jesus believers? Please enter the sum. I can easily stand on honesty and facts to say millions and millions and millions killed by atheists. The numbers killed by Christendom? I'd be interested in the illumination.

And where and in what text does the Christian find the impetus for killing in the name of Jesus? That is a telling place to find the difference in Muslim and Christian murders. And we haven't even approached other religions than those two that have stacked up bodies like cord wood in the history of conquests.

Is a traitor part of what he is betraying?

The answer may be a compliment to you.

[bernee51]

Bernee,

That little picture you display is not designed to cause fear?

Not at all...the picture was taken in Egypt..it was a bright, windy day. The scarf and sunglasses were for the protection of my delicate skin.

Looks a suicide bomber to me.

You should get out more.

Sarcasm about "you scaring me." No Christian fears a non-Christian. How could they?

Sorry, I didn't detect the [sar]...[/sar] tags.

Atheism may very well be the basis of the psychotic and of course sociopathic state in a person.

Fear of or belief in mythical beings may very well be the basis for neuroses and anti-social behaviour.

Your view of the Muslim conquest of the middle east is horrible. If they are justified by killing in the name of allah then they are just as bloodthirsty as any other religionists.

Agreed

And yet their murders continue to this day, while "enlightened" Christianty has chosen to admit their wrongs and embrace their real "religion." Muslim's only continue killing because the Qu'Ran and of course allah and Muhammad, does indeed give them the license.

I would humbly suggest that the reasons for Islamic-based terrorism has more to do with political rather than religious agendae...as did the christian atrocities of yore.

But your perspective that Persians using war and religion to advance a political agenda and conquering innocents? Hmm, where have I heard that before?

Probably in books recounting the history of christian imperialism

I assume you are meditating doing Yoga, a religious practice, to keep yourself well. Well from what?

Yoga is a religious practice? I suppose with some definitions of 'religion' it could be considered as such. I would be interested in your empirical experience of yoga.

Why does it have to keep me well from anything? Is not keeping well an end in itself? With only one life to live I would like it to be as long, healthy and enjoyable as possible. Mental, physical and spiritual fitness is important to me.

How do we really know what Muhammad was told. The words of Gabriel are filtered not by the direct hearing but by Muhammad talking about it and others writing it down. Muhammad wrote down nothing.

Agreed...the koran, like other scriptures is the invention of those that wrote it.

Whereas the New Testament changed nothing of the already existing stories (the ones Mo got wrong somehow) in the Bible as it was handled so well by the Israelites.

Like I said...unimaginative plagiarism. I'm glad we agree on that as well.

The details of what Jesus went through align themselves well with medical and historical facts. There is little to doubt that the writers of the Gospels are accurate.

I would love to see these medical and historical facts. I have yet to see anything in support of biblical historicity (relating to Jesus) that I would consider to be 'evidence'. Perhaps you know something other apologists don't.

Your math on the deaths caused by Jesus believers?

I mentioned the numbers directly killed by, or killings authorised by the JCI god.

Is a traitor part of what he is betraying?

The answer may be a compliment to you.

You keep asking the question. I will answer when you provide a context for it.

[AlAyeti]

The mistakes in the Qu'Ran can be proven by the Jewish Tanakh (the Old Testament) the New Testament appeals ONLY to the Tanakh for its validity.

We do not agree about the Biblical as an invention. It goes against logic. The hero of the Koran is a superstar. The heroes of the Bible are losers.

Not exactly the way most totalitarian beliefs find their impetus. The Bible is the absolute of Pro-Choice."

I've said and I mean it, I am not an Evangelist nor am I proselytizing on these threads.

I stand my ground as having the right to speak and to challenge people who denigrate my culture and beliefs. A silent Christian is an enemy of the faith.

I'm lucky, I'm an American. Why is your opinion or anyone else at anytime in history, more valuable than mine? You make absolute statements so do I. Live to be an old man. That is a desire of mine for you. I hope that I will be allowed the same.

Yoga and my "experiences" of it? I wish I could find a practioner that would not push a religious agenda and just let me kick back and relax. But always the eastern mystic tact to reincarnation (which I assume to you is as silly as it is to me). Hinduism as I mentioned before, is quite the belief. What's holding up the ocean that the swimming turtles, holding up the elephant holding up the earth are in?

And TM? Transcending what? Especially a person who believes in no god or heaven or afterlife. What is meditation for. If it's for daily stress why can't sitting in a quiet closet do the same thing. Why the use of mantra?

Who or what is helping the meditator?

Can't quiet be achieved alone and without Hinduism helping out? Hinduism is a religion.

[bernee51]

We do not agree about the Biblical as an invention. It goes against logic.

How does it go against logic?

The hero of the Koran is a superstar. The heroes of the Bible are losers.

And this is apropos of?

I stand my ground as having the right to speak and to challenge people who denigrate my culture and beliefs.

And you have my unqualified support of that right.

I'm lucky, I'm an American.

I'm luckier, I'm an Australian.

Why is your opinion or anyone else at anytime in history, more valuable than mine?

There opinion may be of no greater or lesser value. The 'empirical evidence they produce (or fail to) to back their opinion is what is of value.

Yoga and my "experiences" of it? I wish I could find a practioner that would not push a religious agenda and just let me kick back and relax.

Don't give up. Or just take from the teacher what you can use or is of value and reject the rest. How do you think I managed to survive 3 to 4 hours of devotional chanting a day for 30 days straight?

But always the eastern mystic tact to reincarnation (which I assume to you is as silly as it is to me).

The strict version of it (as per Vedantic Philosophy) is, IMHO, nonsensical. I would suggest that the 'I' with which I identify has undergone several 'incarnations' since I was born.

I presume you have a belief in the soul, or some part of 'you' which will survive death and be rewarded or otherwise. It is not a far fetch to imagine this soul being 'born again'.

Didn't Jesus say something about being 'born again'. Was he so much influenced by the Buddhist John that he too believed in reincarnation?

Hinduism as I mentioned before, is quite the belief. What's holding up the ocean that the swimming turtles, holding up the elephant holding up the earth are in?

Like I said, it's turtles all the way down! I won't repost the little bit about 'The first prototype couple in god's bad science project'... how is that any more ridiculous than the turtle story?

And TM? Transcending what? Especially a person who believes in no god or heaven or afterlife. What is meditation for. If it's for daily stress why can't sitting in a quiet closet do the same thing. Why the use of mantra?

All good questions - but off topic. The answers, however, can be easily found.

Who or what is helping the meditator?

The meditator.

Can't quiet be achieved alone and without Hinduism helping out?

It can and for many it is achieved alone. What has meditation got to do with hinduism (other than some Hindus meditate, as do some Buddhists, some Christians, some {insert name of religion here})

Hinduism is a religion.

Just one of many. All of which claim they are the right path to 'liberation'. Some even claim they are the only path. Why do you discount Hinduism - or do you?

[bernee51]

The system posted the previous again

[bernee51]

And again!! It must like me

[AlAyeti]

Bernee,

Australian? I hope you surf.

I entered the debate of "all of this" because my apathy wasn't working. "They" the degenerates and sexual perverts, don't want to be included in "diversity," they want my children's bodies. I have gotten off the couch because of that. Why say anything else? Anyone can say they are this and that of importance. I put my pants on the same way as say, Thomas Jefferson. I see myself as his equal and anyone else.

And, in all fairness, caustic and insulting opinions like yours are a place I have a problem with as well. What does "Christianty" do that is so bad? "In the modern world." OK? Muslim's and Hindu's are still hacking people to death. I mean two-minutes ago. Christians do a lot of talking and voting and currently that's it.

This is not the only place "I contend for the faith." I'm using my posts to prove to those that I am going through life with and who ask for my advice, that there are other views that want to extinguish ours but have no great foundation or power to do so. Jesus entered history and stands as the most amazing of "religious" figures. Though I see no religion that can house Christ. Not yet anyway.

Religions like Hinduism is not the way to God. That is my right to say and to believe. I will not harm or kill anyone that doesn't want to believe in Jesus as the authentic creator. In fact I want everyone, especially non-believers to live to be very, very old (98-plus). That way they can always get the chance to choose Christ. But I will no longer sit by and let anti-Christians form the debate. Most have no clue in what they're doing and why and how nor a basis for expunging Christians and Christianity from society.

My question about a traitor being a member of that which he betrays is a compliment to people who do what Jesus wants us to do regardless of their position to Him. That's Biblical.


If Jesus came back and walked by your meditation center and saw the peacefulness there and going down the road a ways walked by KKK members passing out their "Christian" propaganda, who is He going to admire more?

In the Gospels we actually see this.

The Roman commander had greater faith than the Israelites in Jerusalem. The gentile woman who wanted just to hear his words like crumbs falling to a dog at a dinner table of hedonistic gluttons . . ., Jesus complimented that woman and her "faith."

Faith means trust, far more than it means wishful thinking. Trust lends to a solid foundation for that trust.

The disciples walked with Him and saw what He did and yet were sort of Atheists in a way. But honest people. "Lord, teach us how to pray."

Even Thomas after all of the seeing all of the miracles was a skeptic. He obviously had the detailed account of the crucifixion. Jesus changed that by empirical means.

I have no drive to evangelize. I listen, I judge. I act accordingly. I am driven to protect Christians to scared to face anti-Christians. I see my views as valid and leaning heavily on observation of what can be proven. In fact I believe science is my friend far more often than my adversary.

And my view of the morality of Atheists is based on a fair assumption. No?

[bernee51]

And, in all fairness, caustic and insulting opinions like yours are a place I have a problem with as well.

Please point out where I have been caustic. If you feel 'insulted' by me expressing my opinion (as you express yours) then don't read it.

What does "Christianty" do that is so bad? "In the modern world." OK?

Intolerance of plurality and individual rights. Promotion of ethnocentric as opposed to worldcentric views on just about everything

Muslim's and Hindu's are still hacking people to death. I mean two-minutes ago.

Usually for political reasons - just like christians. Christians bombing Muslims.

Jesus entered history and stands as the most amazing of "religious" figures.

The Jesus myth is certainly part of the history of the last 2000 years. As for 'most amazing' that is a matter of opinion.

Religions like Hinduism is not the way to God. That is my right to say and to believe.

It is your right to say that...even if you are wrong. All religions can be said to be a 'way to god'. To say anything else is intolerance.

But I will no longer sit by and let anti-Christians form the debate.

Christianity has been the dominant religion in the west for millennia...how are non-christians 'forming the debate"? Why do you feel under attack as a christian?

Faith means trust, far more than it means wishful thinking. Trust lends to a solid foundation for that trust.

Yet another circularity.

And my view of the morality of Atheists is based on a fair assumption. No?

No. The only thing that atheists have in common regarding the moral basis for their lives is a non-belief in a god based morality. You know nothing of this atheist's moral beliefs and I doubt you have ever read any securar arguments for morality. If you had you would not have expressed the intolerant and faulty assertions in this thread.