Evidence for Creationism, is there any?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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FreddieFreeloader
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Evidence for Creationism, is there any?

Post #1

Post by FreddieFreeloader »

I found this quote in the "Why do you believe in Creationism or Evolution?" thread, as a response to a claim that there was no scientific backing for Creationism.
Illyricum wrote:No scienticfic backing? What do you call Louis Pastuer's studys that disproved spontaneous generation? How do you explain the the fact that the earth is perfectly placed, that if it were just little bit over here or a little bit over there that we'd either burn up or freeze? Have you ever studied the complexity of the human body, of a plant or animal, or even of a microscopic cell?
As evolutionists (I'm doing the popular thing of calling evolution, abiogenesis and cosmology the same for sake of simplicity)
provide backing for their theories Creationists (specifically Young Earth Creationists) try to explain "scientifically" why that evidence doesn't hold.

I observe two things in above quote. First a misunderstanding of the implications of scientific studies (here in the case of Pasteur's experiment), but secondly, and more importantly, in the question of the burden of proof.

On to my question: Ignoring whether or not Creationists are correct in disproving the theories... Does disproving evolution, prove creationism?

I think that the answer is a loud and clear NO!

Then I ask you, what evidence do we have for Creationism?

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Nyril
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Post #21

Post by Nyril »

The origin of the creator is out of scope of this thread. This thread is simply showing evidence for a supernatural entity creating the universe. If you would like to discuss the origin of the creator, please start another thread and we can talk over there.
That wasn't really my point, but I can't blame you really, I should of expanded.

For the purposes of this argument, I will grant your statement that we needed to of been created. Next we need to have been created. Before that however, the creature that created us would of needed to be created. The creature that created the previous creator would need to be created, and so on for all eternity. Why is this not the case with your scenario?
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air...we need believing people."
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juliod
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Post #22

Post by juliod »

Another set of evidence to support creationism is the Anthropic Principle.
The AP is not evidence. It is a metaphysical speculation, nothing more.

As for evidence in support of creationism, I don't think there is any.

Can anyone suggest evidence for creationism that doesn't start with metaphysical assumption? What I mean is, can you start with me, sitting here in front of my computer, and lead me to some observation that would support creationism? Something that I can actually observe, or at least in principle go somewhere or do something to observe?

Is there, for example, any actual dating method that indicates the earth is 6000 years old? Is there an astrophysical observation that indicated the universe is smaller than 6000 light-years? Is there an organism alive today that is unambiguously not descended from previously living organisms?

No, there isn't...

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Chem
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Post #23

Post by Chem »

The theory of evolution is only valid if survival of the fittest unfolds out of the many random gene mutations.
Evolution says absolutly nothing about survival of the fittest- this is a misconception, it is about the propagagtion of DNA.
"I'd rather know than believe" Carl Sagan.

"The worst Government is the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when the fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression." H.L. Mencken

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Post #24

Post by Chem »

There are no genes, there are no nucleic acids, there is no phenotype nor genotype. These are all madeup concepts to support the rationalistic concept that man is a machine; hence there must be a mechanical mechanism to explain man's variation.
Interesting :-k .

Then what exactly are we made of?

What do you offer as proof?

Paradigm shifts are difficult at the best of times but to claim that there are no genes etc wow!

How are the similarieties and differences between relatives explained if there is no phenotypic variation. If the creation myth was fact then following your reasoning shouldn't we all be very alike?
"I'd rather know than believe" Carl Sagan.

"The worst Government is the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when the fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression." H.L. Mencken

Ilurk
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Post #25

Post by Ilurk »

Otseng, I’d like to roll back to one of your earlier posts in this thread. I have a few points in disagreement with your initial premises.

Otseng wrote:
The Creation Model (CM) is consistent with the first law of thermodynamics. That is, the sum of the energy and matter in a closed system is constant. If we consider the entire universe as a closed system, the only way it could have been created is if a system outside of the universe created it.
The problem I see here is that you simply state that CM is consistent with the first law of thermodynamics (1st LOT) without evidence, present the universe as a closed system at the point of creation without evidence, and then say that because the universe was closed (as required by the first law), it must have been created by an outside system. In short, you make two claims without evidence, and then use them as evidence to support an additional claim. Sorry, but that doesn’t work.

Your statement also raises other questions. How do you know that the universe was a closed system at the point of creation? And if it was a closed system – that is, not open to energy flows from the outside – how did the energy from outside used to create it get inside? There is a logical and physical inconsistency here.

Otseng wrote:
The CM is also consistent with the second law of thermodynamics. That is, the amount of useful energy decreases after any work process in a closed system. Creationism does not violate this rule. The second law also shows that there had to have been a finite time for the existence of the universe.
It’s not clear what you’re getting at here. Are you saying that at the moment of creation the creating whatsis exerted energy to do the work of creation and that this process increased the entropy of the entire system, that is, the universe and the creator? If that is the case, can you verify this? Are creators subject to the 2nd LOT? When a creator does creative work, does the creator, as a system, experience increased entropy?

Otseng wrote:
CM is also consistent with Mendel's laws. Diversity among living things is generally attributed to this law. Animals that were created at the very beginning had the genes to account for practically all the variations that we see today. Microevolution would account for the remainder of the variations.
This statement raises three sets of questions:

Mendel’s laws are mathematical rules that describe the inheritance and expression of unlinked dominant and recessive alleles that effect a single trait. How, given other verified mechanisms for genetic variation such as gene linkage, chromosomal crossover, spot mutations, gene inversions, and gene duplication, can you say that the diversity among living things is generally attributed to this law? And if CM is only consistent with Mendel’s laws and does not take into account the other mechanisms, then why should we even continue this discussion? Isn’t CM falsified right at this point?

What evidence do you have that all animals (and I’m assuming you mean all other living things as well) that were created at the very beginning had the genes to account for practically all the variations we see today? Are you suggesting, for example, that in sexually reproducing populations where there are multiple alleles for a given trait, that the originally created pair somehow managed to have more than four alleles for that trait between the two of them?

What evidence do you have that microevolution and the original genetic variation in created organisms accounts for the variation we see today? We know that morphological and genetic commonalities can only be inherited. If what you say about microevolution and original genetic variation is true, which puts severe limits on descent with modification, then how do you explain the morphological and genetic commonalities between, say, chimps and humans, or between humans and all mammals? If the commonalities were not inherited, than what other observed mechanism would you name as the cause?

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Post #26

Post by Ilurk »

Otseng, I’d like to roll back to one of your earlier posts in this thread. I have a few points of disagreement with your initial premises.

Otseng wrote:
The Creation Model (CM) is consistent with the first law of thermodynamics. That is, the sum of the energy and matter in a closed system is constant. If we consider the entire universe as a closed system, the only way it could have been created is if a system outside of the universe created it.


The problem I see here is that you simply state that CM is consistent with the first law of thermodynamics (1st LOT) without evidence, present the universe as a closed system at the point of creation without evidence, and then say that because the universe was closed (as required by the first law), it must have been created by an outside system. In short, you make two claims without evidence, and then use them as evidence to support an additional claim. Sorry, but that doesn’t work.

Your statement also raises other questions. How do you know that the universe was a closed system at the point of creation? And if it was a closed system – that is, not open to energy flows from the outside – how did the energy from outside used to create it get inside? There is a logical and physical inconsistency here.

Otseng wrote:
The CM is also consistent with the second law of thermodynamics. That is, the amount of useful energy decreases after any work process in a closed system. Creationism does not violate this rule. The second law also shows that there had to have been a finite time for the existence of the universe.


It’s not clear what you’re getting at here. Are you saying that at the moment of creation the creating whatsis exerted energy to do the work of creation and that this process increased the entropy of the entire system, that is, the universe and the creator? If that is the case, can you verify this? Are creators subject to the 2nd LOT? When a creator does creative work, does the creator, as a system, experience increased entropy?

Otseng wrote:
CM is also consistent with Mendel's laws. Diversity among living things is generally attributed to this law. Animals that were created at the very beginning had the genes to account for practically all the variations that we see today. Microevolution would account for the remainder of the variations.


This statement raises three sets of questions:

Mendel’s laws are mathematical rules that describe the inheritance and expression of unlinked dominant and recessive alleles that effect a single trait. How, given other verified mechanisms for genetic variation such as gene linkage, chromosomal crossover, spot mutations, gene inversions, and gene duplication, can you say that the diversity among living things is generally attributed to this law? And if CM is only consistent with Mendel’s laws and does not take into account the other mechanisms, then why should we even continue this discussion? Isn’t CM falsified right at this point?

What evidence do you have that all animals (and I’m assuming you mean all other living things as well) that were created at the very beginning had the genes to account for practically all the variations we see today? Are you suggesting, for example, that in sexually reproducing populations where there are multiple alleles for a given trait, that the originally created pair somehow managed to have more than four alleles for that trait between the two of them?

What evidence do you have that microevolution and the original genetic variation in created organisms accounts for the variation we see today? We know that morphological and genetic commonalities can only be inherited. If what you say about microevolution and original genetic variation is true, which puts severe limits on descent with modification, then how do you explain the morphological and genetic commonalities between, say, chimps and humans, or between humans and all mammals? If the commonalities were not inherited, than what other observed mechanism would you name as the cause?

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Wyvern
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Post #27

Post by Wyvern »

Creationism by its very nature can neither be proven or disproven. The only way to do so would to be to prove/disprove god itself, which isn't going to happen any time soon. Moreso creationism is a religious principle and in as such it does not need to be proven, merely believed, and if you are a believer it is generally very hard to dissuade someone of that belief.

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Post #28

Post by jwu »

That's a good point. Technically, using the means of science, all that could possibly be found evidence for would be "poofism", a sudden appearance of just about everything. If that is the result of a creation by God or not would be left open.

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Post #29

Post by otseng »

Ilurk wrote: The problem I see here is that you simply state that CM is consistent with the first law of thermodynamics (1st LOT) without evidence, present the universe as a closed system at the point of creation without evidence, and then say that because the universe was closed (as required by the first law), it must have been created by an outside system. In short, you make two claims without evidence, and then use them as evidence to support an additional claim. Sorry, but that doesn’t work.
Do I have empirical evidence whether the universe was closed or open at the point of its origin? No, I do not have any. Rather, I base it on our current observations of our universe. We have no evidence that anything is currently entering or leaving our universe. We have no evidence that matter/energy is decreasing or increasing in our universe. Since evidence currently points that our universe is closed, I am inferring that the universe has always been closed.
Your statement also raises other questions. How do you know that the universe was a closed system at the point of creation? And if it was a closed system – that is, not open to energy flows from the outside – how did the energy from outside used to create it get inside? There is a logical and physical inconsistency here.
There is definitely a physical inconsistency at the point of creation. It required a supernatural event to create the universe and is not explainable through physical laws.
The CM is also consistent with the second law of thermodynamics. That is, the amount of useful energy decreases after any work process in a closed system. Creationism does not violate this rule. The second law also shows that there had to have been a finite time for the existence of the universe.

It’s not clear what you’re getting at here.
I explain more about this in second law of thermodynamics (its an easy one).
And if CM is only consistent with Mendel’s laws and does not take into account the other mechanisms, then why should we even continue this discussion?
I do not state anywhere that CM uses only Mendel's laws to account for genetic variability. Certainly other factors can be involved.

I brought up Mendel's laws primarily to argue against macroevolution. But, upon further reading, it seems like evolutionists do not espouse macroevolution. So, if that is indeed the case, Mendel's laws wouldn't really apply as a point of debate anymore.
How do you explain the morphological and genetic commonalities between, say, chimps and humans, or between humans and all mammals? If the commonalities were not inherited, than what other observed mechanism would you name as the cause?
Same way there is commonality between a violin, a cello, a viola, and a bass violin. Though they are all stringed instruments and have common features, that does not mean they evolved from one another. Rather, they were all designed and created by string instrument manufacturers.

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Post #30

Post by jwu »

A quick question:
What testable predictions which are different from those of "mainstream theories" does the creation model make?

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