Those Annoying Little Habbits...

[Jester]

I thought it might be a good idea to look at a few of the complaints we Christians tend to get in terms of our debating. I've been trying to picture my opponents doing something similar, even if it's not the sort of thing that would ever happen. I think it might be enlightening for us to answer some of these questions.
And feel free to add some of your own, but can we make complaints about the irritating things our opponents do out-of-bounds for this one?

1) How would you respond if there were some kind of atheistic "scripture" that was quoted at you for evidence as "proof" that there was no God?
2) What would you say to an atheist who simply but sincerely maintained that he has faith that no God exists.
3) What is the best response to claims from atheists that some force in the universe will punish us severely if we don't accept their belief that there is no God?

Trying to answer these questions, I think, will make us more empathetic and better debaters (even if you don't personally do these things). I'm a big believer in the idea that we can't expect people who don't know God to come to our place of understanding on their own. Rather, its our job to understand their form of reasoning.

[dunsapy]

Proverbs 26:4-5 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I have always liked this one.

1 Cor 1:19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.� 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.

[bambi]

Is there a place for evil on earth when God created the world?

[dunsapy]

Is there a place for evil on earth when God created the world?

No.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.� This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. Their thoughts have ceased, as the Bible states: “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.�—Psalm 146:3, 4, AV

Death is just what it seems. There is no place of torment.

[dunsapy]

1) How would you respond if there were some kind of atheistic "scripture" that was quoted at you for evidence as "proof" that there was no God?
2) What would you say to an atheist who simply but sincerely maintained that he has faith that no God exists.
3) What is the best response to claims from atheists that some force in the universe will punish us severely if we don't accept their belief that there is no God?

Actually there is this. Science, on how life started and evolution, fits this description.

religion
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.

[bambi]

Death is just what it seems. There is no place of torment.

I agree on what you say that there is no place for evil on earth as it was said in the book of Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
God made everything and it was very good, God never planned to put evil anywhere here on earth. But. how come evil came in?

the death you are speaking of is physical death right? I don't know if you will agree with me that in Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God is speaking of the spiritual death for Adam.

Who is the first one who experienced death spiritually and physically? Where did it happen?

[dunsapy]

I agree on what you say that there is no place for evil on earth as it was said in the book of Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
God made everything and it was very good, God never planned to put evil anywhere here on earth. But. how come evil came in?

the death you are speaking of is physical death right? I don't know if you will agree with me that in Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God is speaking of the spiritual death for Adam.

Who is the first one who experienced death spiritually and physically? Where did it happen?

The evil that came in was from Satan. The bible says Satan made himself Satan ( which means resistor) He was placed in the position of ruling the earth, by God. He turned himself into Satan. ( and Satan is still ruling the earth)
Less than 130 years after Adam and Eve sinned, the first violent murder, a fratricide, occurred. Cain, Adam’s firstborn son, motivated by envious hatred, murdered his righteous brother Abel. (Ge 4:1-8, 25; 5:3) For this act Cain was cursed in banishment to become a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth. (Ge 4:11, 12)
Now animals all died in their time, but for humans it was Abel. Humans are not immortal. ( for that matter neither are the angels) There is no spirit that goes out from the physical body when man dies. That is why the bible says that his thoughts do perish. The only hope for anyone that dies is Gods memory of you.

[bambi]

The evil that came in was from Satan. The bible says Satan made himself Satan ( which means resistor)

ISAIAH 14:12-14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

He was placed in the position of ruling the earth, by God. He turned himself into Satan. ( and Satan is still ruling the earth)

may I ask a quote from the bible that God put him to rule the earth?thanks

Less than 130 years after Adam and Eve sinned, the first violent murder, a fratricide, occurred. Cain, Adam’s firstborn son, motivated by envious hatred, murdered his righteous brother Abel. (Ge 4:1-8, 25; 5:3) For this act Cain was cursed in banishment to become a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth. (Ge 4:11, 12)
Now animals all died in their time, but for humans it was Abel.

I agree that abel was the first man who expirenced physical death. how about spiritual death?

Humans are not immortal.

yes

( for that matter neither are the angels)

please qoute a verse. thanks

[dunsapy]

may I ask a quote from the bible that God put him to rule the earth?thanks

Luke 4:5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. 7 You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.�
This is Satan talking to Jesus. Did you notice that Satan said all the kingdoms of the earth are mine and I can give it to whomever I wish.
For Satan to have these kingdoms, means that God would have had to given them to him in the first place. Which, shows that the angel that became Satan , was at one of the most favorable ones , because he was given the position of the ruler of the earth.

John 14:28 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. 29 So now I have told YOU before it occurs, in order that, when it does occur, YOU may believe. 30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,
Jesus is talking about the ruler of the world , and that he has no hold on him. So that can't be God. The only other one is Satan

Eph 1:2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.
The sons of disobedience , is talking about Satan and his followers.

ISAIAH 14:12-14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

This is talking about Satan and his high minded attitude, saying that he will be above all the things of God. But the next verse that you did not quote, tells us what will happen to him. And it says.

15 “However, down to She′ol you will be brought, to the remotest parts of the pit.

I agree that abel was the first man who expirenced physical death. how about spiritual death?

I am not sure what you mean by spiritual death. The reason I say this is because many religions teach different things, about death. Please explain further.

[bambi]

The reason I say this is because many religions teach different things, about death. Please explain further

John 8:44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

As it said that there is no truth in satan. So from his word in Genesis 3:4-5
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

He lied here because he himself experienced death already from the time that he rebelled against God. He deceived eve saying you will not die when you disobey God for in fact he himself died when he go against God. So for me this is the spiritual death that satan himself first experienced.


Ephesians 4:18
18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
Here says that there is a separation from the life of God means for God they are dead even though they are still alive. ITim5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. James1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

I don't know if you will agree with me I just want to share my understanding. And for me the first man who experienced spiritual death is adam.

Do you believe in once save always save? And faith alone that can save you? I don't want to offending I just want to share.

[dunsapy]

Do you believe in once save always save? And faith alone that can save you? I don't want to offending I just want to share.

I appreciate that, I like a discussion, and just want to share also.
No I don't believe in once saved always saved.
Many sincere people believe that this is what the Bible teaches. And it is true that a number of Bible texts indicate that the basis for salvation is not one’s works, but, rather, faith in Jesus Christ, together with God’s “grace� and mercy. (Eph. 2:8, 9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:4, 5) Additionally, Jesus himself said that “he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life.�—John 3:36, Authorized Version (AV); 1 John 5:13.
Well, Christians concerned about their salvation may also wish to consider Jesus’ declaration that “he that endureth to the end shall be saved.� (Matt. 10:22; 24:12, 13; Mark 13:13, AV) And the apostle Paul comments similarly: “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.�—Heb. 3:14, AV. Why would this be necessary, if once saved always saved?
How are we to reconcile these seeming disparities? Surely these servants of God were not contradicting themselves. Rather, were they not merely expressing the same understanding from different viewpoints? The apostle Paul provides the key to harmonizing these viewpoints.
Time and again Paul likens the Christian’s course to a “race� that must be run to the finish. “Let us run with patience the race that is set before us,� he urged the Hebrews. (12:1, AV) To enter the race, sinners must take the steps necessary for salvation: hearing and accepting the Word of God, believing in Jesus Christ and his ransom sacrifice, repenting of their sins and being baptized. In this way, they get saved “from this crooked generation,� as Peter exhorted those gathered at Pentecost. Unbelievers are outside the race, having failed to enter by getting “saved.�—Acts 2:37-40, Revised Standard Version (RSV); 16:31-33; Rom. 10:13, 14.
� In the Christian race, Paul indicates the “one� who receives the prize is anyone who finishes the race. Therefore, Paul urges, “So run that you may obtain it.� Then, using himself as an example to make the point of his illustration, he continues: “I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.�—1 Tim. 6:19; 1 Cor. 9:24-27, RSV.
Paul is saying he could lose it, even after believing in Jesus.

1 Cor 9:12 Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.

Heb. 10:26, 27, RS: “If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.�

Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what sins a person may commit after he is “saved� he will not lose his salvation. It encourages faithfulness. See also Hebrews 6:4-6, where it is shown that even a person anointed with holy spirit can lose his hope of salvation.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.


Faith alone can not save you.

“Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?�—Jas. 2:14.

Jas 2:17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.


Jas 1:22 However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. 25 But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it].