Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:48 pm

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

foshizzle · Post by **foshizzle** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:58 pm

He gives you both elaborated and thoughtful answers. And you give short pointless rebuttals to this.

He said this...

Historical proofs? Sure. Let's follow some criteria here. Let's take Caesar, for instance... a) Contemporary witnesses: about a dozen of the most influential Roman writers b) Works: we have a complete history of his life as a general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies. Caesar's own account of his war, De Bello Gallico, still survives.
c) Contemporary artifacts that confirm his life and death, as do his successors: coins with his effigy, inscriptions celebrating his deeds, even a portrait of him found near Tusculum and carved during Caesar's own lifetime. d) Miscellaneous: Caesar established a style of government and a calendar which endured for centuries. Other consequences of his intervention available....

And I say this...

Thallus, Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Hadrian, Suetonius, Phlegon, Lucian of Samosata, Mara Bar-Serapoion and the Jewish rabbis at the time wrote about Jesus Christ.

Quote:
b) Works: we have a complete history of his life as a general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies. Caesar's own account of his war, De Bello Gallico, still survives.

The first record of the existance of Juilius Caeser was written over /1000/ years after his death. Jesus Christ had accounts dated within 24 years.

The Jewish writers of the Talmund were most definately not friends, and they also wrote about him.

Quote:
c) Contemporary artifacts that confirm his life and death, as do his successors: coins with his effigy, inscriptions celebrating his deeds, even a portrait of him found near Tusculum and carved during Caesar's own lifetime.

There's no real reason for Jesus to be inscribed onto coins (as he wasn't a political leader). Also:
1 - Jesus wasn't in a position of public importance. He wasn't a kig, not a religious leader, he wasn't a general. Relative to Rome, Jesus came from a small, unimportant town, was an unimportant carpenter, and he had a short, 3 year ministry. Rome hardly knew of him, until testimony of eyewitnesses later threatened their political and religous stability.

2 - The records of his teachings survived the most intensive eradication effort of all time. Exponentially growing in numbers, Christian witnesses were killed, written records were burned, and anyone professing the belief was martyred/killed. In 303 AD, an edict was issued to destoryr /all/ the world's Bibles. People found with them were killed.

3 - There was no printing press, and the world population was tiny. The number of surviving manuscripsts is staggering considering they were all hand copied by a infinitly small population base (compared to today). Only 138 million people existed at the time, with no automatic duplication. What would motivate such extensive work?

What makes the case even more amazing as that his disciples (all but 1) died horrible deaths of martytrs. I doubt anyone would be willing to die (much less 11) to advance an idea that they know isn't true.
James was stoned, Peter was crucified upside-down, Paul was beheaded, Thaddaeus was killed with arrows, Matthew and James (of Zebedee) had deaths by sword, and the rest were crucified.

More, Paul was a leading killer of Christians, but he gave up wealth, power and comfort upon seeing the ressurected Christ, then proceeded to write most of the New Testament.

All of these reasons make the survival of his teachings an amazing feat.

Quote:
d) Miscellaneous: Caesar established a style of government and a calendar which endured for centuries. Other consequences of his intervention available....

Jesus Christ established a religion that endured an erradication attempt unlike any other, threatening followers with death. This has lasted over 2,000 years.

Anything else?

Any you accuse me of having "short, pointless rebuttals"?

I'm not sure what you're seeing here. If anyone else sees me as being disrespectful, please say so, but from my experience with you, you're opinion of my responses is not worth caring about.

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:08 pm

Any you accuse me of having "short, pointless rebuttals"?

Well, you neglected your previous two posts. Also, he gave you 3 examples of where this had happened.

I'm not sure what you're seeing here. If anyone else sees me as being disrespectful, please say so, but from my experience with you, you're opinion of my responses is not worth caring about.

You're disrespectful right there. In that little paragraph, while you're talking about how you're not disrespectful.

LillSnopp · Post by **LillSnopp** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:09 pm

but from my experience with you, you're opinion of my responses is not worth caring about.

Like i said, you ignored everything i said, and then insulted me. You should bow before me, as i can predict the future pretty well, similar to God eh? (except that i am above him).

foshizzle · Post by **foshizzle** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:51 pm

You're insulted by me not caring about your opinion?

Fragile ego, I must say...

Lotan · Post by **Lotan** » Sun May 08, 2005 12:06 am

foshizzle wrote:I doubt anyone would be willing to die (much less 11) to advance an idea that they know isn't true.

How many members of the Heaven's Gate cult travelled to Hale-Bopp? Do you recall?

foshizzle · Post by **foshizzle** » Sun May 08, 2005 12:35 am

My point wasn't that the Disciples were correct. It was that they were willing to die because they believed his teachings.

Would you think they would die to advance the teachings of someone they know didn't exist?

My point was: it wasn't a hoax. They may have been wrong, but Jesus /did/ exist, and they /did/ believe he was the Son of God.

foshizzle · Post by **foshizzle** » Sun May 08, 2005 2:49 am

You did not say anything disrespectful foshizzle, but i consider your way of debating with trencacloscas is disrespectful. He gives you both elaborated and thoughtful answers. And you give short pointless rebuttals to this. If you are not able to answer him, clearly, he knows better, and you should listen to him.

Everything I have stated in this thread is not something "off the top of my head", it is something I have found verified by mutiple sources (books, internet, etc.). I answered every point he had, I believe.

You simply claim here that it is not possible to prove a forgery. And then you insult him (in my eyes).

Actually, I said "It's not possible to "prove" that it's a forgery, and most scholars have made the conclusions that i just mentioned above. Did you take this one page and assume it "proved" every testimony of Christ's existance as false?
Sad..."

He posted a link to a geocities site dedicated to attempting to prove the forgery of Josephus's writings of Jesus. The site said nothing about the numerous other writers i mentioned. Since he had no response for those, I assumed it meant he saw them all as forgeries; ergo, my question of "Did you take this one page and assume it "proved" every testimony of Christ's existance as false?" and my opinion of "Sad..." if he did indeed do so.

You claim that he did not look into what you said, yet, he said its pure speculation. You can only assume he did this, else he would not answer you in this manner. If Trencacloscas did lie is not a manner of concern, as you would not know, but what we do know, is that you once again, insult him with this comment.

Yes, I did claim he didn't look into what I said. If he had, he would not call it pure speculation.

Well, you neglected your previous two posts. Also, he gave you 3 examples of where this had happened.

One of my two previous posts was questioning your reasoning for not trusting the vaildity of the other numerous sources (as you only addressed 2). The second wasn't even a response to you, so I'm guessing you didn't read it.

Like i said, you ignored everything i said, and then insulted me. You should bow before me, as i can predict the future pretty well, similar to God eh? (except that i am above him).

Do you really consider it an insult that I do not care about your opinions of my responses?

The moment you stop constantly posting sardonic, sarcastic, demeaning and hopelessly biased comments agains the Christian faith, I will care about your opinion.

I also find it odd that you (Lillsnopp) of all people are criticizing me for insulting people. Perhaps you should check the plank in your own eye before you notice the speck in the eyes of others?

Back on subject, your link discussing the supposed forgery of Josephus's testimony did show the interpolations (as I did in the post following it). It didn't "prove the testimony as a forgery". It simply showed that interpolations exist; I acknowledge that. The writings as a whole appear to be genuine, as they have for the vast majority of scholars that have looked at them.

Do you have reasons not to believe Thallus, Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Hadrian, Suetonius, Phlegon, Lucian of Samosata and Mara Bar-Serapoion?

Since you've requested sources, I'll post the books i've used. If you really wish, I'll post exact page numbers for exact posts, but as of now it's a bit late and I don't have time.

Paul Barnett - "Is the New Testament History?"
Craig Blomberg - "The Historical Reliability of the Gospels"
F.F. Bruce - "The New Testament Gospels: Are They Reliable?"
Gleason Archer - "The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties"
Arthur G. Patzia - "The Making of the New Testament"
http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/papias.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/185.html

Is there anything specific you wanted evidence for? (LillSnopp, I beg you, unless you intend to add something to this debate instead of creating pointless controversy over debate techniques, please don't post in this thread.)

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Sun May 08, 2005 3:08 am

Would you think they would die to advance the teachings of someone they know didn't exist?

Yes. Very easily. The point is not to further his teachings, but the power their "teachings" give over the indoctrinated. If nobody believes, nobody has power over anyone. I mean, just look at your argument there. If I could find someone willing to die for the cause of the IPU, does that automatically mean the IPU exists? Yes, I use the IPU because I don't feel like spewing out random names like the magical green frogs from saturn.

For example:

A Western North Carolina church expelled nine members this week because they refused to support their pastor's Republican views, members say.
The members, three of them deacons at East Waynesville Baptist Church, were voted out Monday night at the church in Haywood County, just west of Asheville.

All nine walked out after Pastor Chan Chandler told them he expected them to sign forms supporting his political and moral beliefs. After they left, members who remained voted to boot the dissenters.

"He went on and on about how he's going to bring politics up, and if we didn't agree with him we should leave," said Isaac Sutton, 75, a deacon who was voted out after 12 years at the church. "I think I deserve the right to vote for who I want to."

foshizzle · Post by **foshizzle** » Sun May 08, 2005 10:15 am

Yes. Very easily. The point is not to further his teachings, but the power their "teachings" give over the indoctrinated. If nobody believes, nobody has power over anyone. I mean, just look at your argument there. If I could find someone willing to die for the cause of the IPU, does that automatically mean the IPU exists? Yes, I use the IPU because I don't feel like spewing out random names like the magical green frogs from saturn.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is seems like you're saying /you/ could find people willing to die for a cause, even though you know it's not correct; however, the people dying would think it is, would they not?
(If I misunderstood, please correct me).

And yes, it's possible they may have been incorrect. I'm not disputing Christ's validity at this point, but more the fact that he existed.

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Sun May 08, 2005 2:25 pm

Is seems like you're saying /you/ could find people willing to die for a cause, even though you know it's not correct; however, the people dying would think it is, would they not?

What I'm saying is, if I could find one atheist who knows full and very well that the IPU is simply a debating tactic to die for the cause, would that make the IPU real? And it could happen, perhaps an elderly fellow who spent his life debating with people, and is fed up with hearing the argument that because people are willing to die for it, it must be real. He would die just so that every single future atheist could use him as an example of someone that died to further a cause he didn't know existed, simply so that his death could be used as an argument.