Is Islam Immoral?

[Thought Criminal]

Setting aside the very liberal Muslims who are fine people but not very consistent with their religion's teachings, I ask whether the ethical system embodied in traditional Islam is immoral. I am not putting it to a vote, since this is a matter of discussion, not head count. So feel free to reply, but defend your claims.

TC

[McCulloch]

I wouldn't say odd. I think we should start to realize many people are incorporating their culture with Islam. The issue isn't with Islam, it's with the individuals. Just like there are many Christians who do un-Christian like things, there are many Muslims doing unIslamic things... Does that mean Islam promotes/teaches it....? No, it doesn't. The actions of Muslims doesn't change with Islam teaches.

But if certain attitudes and actions appear to be more prevalent in Islamic societies than in non-Islamic ones, would it not be reasonable to look to the teachings and practices of Islam for a reason? If, for example, sun worshipers were more prone to public nudity than others, would you not look to sun worshiping for a reason?

[Goat]

Yes, not everyone follows all the restrictions and such.

However, in this case, the 'morality' police are interpreting the Koran in a very strict manner, and using passages in the Koran to justify their actions.

Not all Muslims will interpret the Koran the same way. However, the motivations for these actions are claimed to be based on the Koran.

Exactly!

They are just that. "Claimed" to be based on the Quran. But you know what, I bet most of the people couldn't provide the lines in the Quran which justify their acts.

Those who call themselves Muslims, yet kill completely innocent people. I don't know what's going on in their mind, but they cannot read the Quran and still believe their actions are justifies in the Quran.

I just think that this is the big issue many can't see past. People's interpretation of the Quran. Mistaking different interpretations of the Quran for the actual teachings of the Quran. Muslims believe that the Sunnah and Hadiths help explain to Quran. The Prophet (pbuh) said that: "One who interprets the Quran according to personal opinion he makes his place in fire (Hell)."

Oh, I am quite sure they could quote passages to justify their actions. I am not sure that the passages would be in context though. I find that the more authoritarian types of religious believers do not read passages in context very well. Sometimes, I noticed some Christians who are authoritarian even will concentrate on half a line, and ignore the other half which causes the exact opposite point to be made !!!

[muhammad rasullah]

Setting aside the very liberal Muslims who are fine people but not very consistent with their religion's teachings, I ask whether the ethical system embodied in traditional Islam is immoral. I am not putting it to a vote, since this is a matter of discussion, not head count. So feel free to reply, but defend your claims.

TC

If we are going to stick with the topic then we should focus on Islam (the teachings) and not muslims (those who follow the teachings). Every religion has black sheep which no one are proud of and truly don't represent Islam (the teachings) as being moral or immoral. Now if we are going to use muslim's as examples of Islamic immorality then this claim still should be defended with the specific teaching that tells a muslim to act as immoral. No matter what the people themselves who did such an act believe whoever posts it and agrees and believes this is supported by an Islamic teaching should provide the source otherwise it has no merit.
Because as easily as someone can point out a muslim doing what they feel is immoral I can point out someone doing the something as well for whatever they believe and that gets us nowhere. These are found in the quran and the hadith pull from them as you please but quote in context an accurately.

Also morality is subjective and a very broad concept so it should be clearly defined and agreed upon to debate it.

[Goat]

Setting aside the very liberal Muslims who are fine people but not very consistent with their religion's teachings, I ask whether the ethical system embodied in traditional Islam is immoral. I am not putting it to a vote, since this is a matter of discussion, not head count. So feel free to reply, but defend your claims.

TC

If we are going to stick with the topic then we should focus on Islam (the teachings) and not muslims (those who follow the teachings). Every religion has black sheep which no one are proud of and truly don't represent Islam (the teachings) as being moral or immoral. Now if we are going to use muslim's as examples of Islamic immorality then this claim still should be defended with the specific teaching that tells a muslim to act as immoral. No matter what the people themselves who did such an act believe whoever posts it and agrees and believes this is supported by an Islamic teaching should provide the source otherwise it has no merit.
Because as easily as someone can point out a muslim doing what they feel is immoral I can point out someone doing the something as well for whatever they believe and that gets us nowhere. These are found in the quran and the hadith pull from them as you please but quote in context an accurately.

Also morality is subjective and a very broad concept so it should be clearly defined and agreed upon to debate it.

The question then becomes, why are there such a large number of examples of countries that use Islam for their justification for brutal dictatorships and for harsh laws? Why do you have the Saudia Arabian morality police, the areas in Africa where they have stoned women they think are guilty of immorality to death, and hanging of rape victims in Iran? It isn't just a few incidences.

[muhammad rasullah]

Setting aside the very liberal Muslims who are fine people but not very consistent with their religion's teachings, I ask whether the ethical system embodied in traditional Islam is immoral. I am not putting it to a vote, since this is a matter of discussion, not head count. So feel free to reply, but defend your claims.

TC

If we are going to stick with the topic then we should focus on Islam (the teachings) and not muslims (those who follow the teachings). Every religion has black sheep which no one are proud of and truly don't represent Islam (the teachings) as being moral or immoral. Now if we are going to use muslim's as examples of Islamic immorality then this claim still should be defended with the specific teaching that tells a muslim to act as immoral. No matter what the people themselves who did such an act believe whoever posts it and agrees and believes this is supported by an Islamic teaching should provide the source otherwise it has no merit.
Because as easily as someone can point out a muslim doing what they feel is immoral I can point out someone doing the something as well for whatever they believe and that gets us nowhere. These are found in the quran and the hadith pull from them as you please but quote in context an accurately.

Also morality is subjective and a very broad concept so it should be clearly defined and agreed upon to debate it.

The question then becomes, why are there such a large number of examples of countries that use Islam for their justification for brutal dictatorships and for harsh laws? Why do you have the Saudia Arabian morality police, the areas in Africa where they have stoned women they think are guilty of immorality to death, and hanging of rape victims in Iran? It isn't just a few incidences.

There can be many reasons why someone does something but the question is whether there is any justification for it under islamic teachings. And the answer is clearly no.

[Goat]

There can be many reasons why someone does something but the question is whether there is any justification for it under islamic teachings. And the answer is clearly no.

Is it clearly no? In each case, they quote the Koran. They invoke Sharia law.
If it was clearly no, then the head of the morality police in Sauda Arabia would not be the Mullahs. The enforcers of the law in Iran would not be the Ayatollahs.

[muhammad rasullah]

There can be many reasons why someone does something but the question is whether there is any justification for it under islamic teachings. And the answer is clearly no.

Is it clearly no? In each case, they quote the Koran. They invoke Sharia law.
If it was clearly no, then the head of the morality police in Sauda Arabia would not be the Mullahs. The enforcers of the law in Iran would not be the Ayatollahs.

What you have are people who use the Quran as a reference guide to promote there own personal interest with there own interpretations of how the shariah should be carried out. But again we can argue all day about muslims and there behaviors and christians, and jews and the like. But when the question is asked "is islam immoral" then it pertains to the teachings of islam not the muslims. So if you want to continue having a debate on this thread or want to debate an issue the please point to an islamic teaching from the Quran or the sunnah. Because Saudi Arabia is not governed by islamic law it has become secular in many ways.

[Goat]

There can be many reasons why someone does something but the question is whether there is any justification for it under islamic teachings. And the answer is clearly no.

Is it clearly no? In each case, they quote the Koran. They invoke Sharia law.
If it was clearly no, then the head of the morality police in Sauda Arabia would not be the Mullahs. The enforcers of the law in Iran would not be the Ayatollahs.

What you have are people who use the Quran as a reference guide to promote there own personal interest with there own interpretations of how the shariah should be carried out. But again we can argue all day about muslims and there behaviors and christians, and jews and the like. But when the question is asked "is islam immoral" then it pertains to the teachings of islam not the muslims. So if you want to continue having a debate on this thread or want to debate an issue the please point to an islamic teaching from the Quran or the sunnah. Because Saudi Arabia is not governed by islamic law it has become secular in many ways.

Yes, and it seems to me that the secular parts are the ones that protest against the Islamic law that is in just. The pattern that I see it is that any place where they have instituted 'Islamic Law' there is great injustice. "Islamic law" is claimed to be based on the Koran.. by all the theological governments that practice it. They claim to be using the teachings of Islam.

Are you saying they are not practicing 'True Islam'? What are all the Islamiic Theocracies unjust, ?

[Ms_Maryam]

Yes, and it seems to me that the secular parts are the ones that protest against the Islamic law that is in just. The pattern that I see it is that any place where they have instituted 'Islamic Law' there is great injustice. "Islamic law" is claimed to be based on the Koran.. by all the theological governments that practice it. They claim to be using the teachings of Islam.

Are you saying they are not practicing 'True Islam'? What are all the Islamiic Theocracies unjust, ?

Can you give some examples of the countries that are instituting Islamic Law that have injustice?

[Goat]

Yes, and it seems to me that the secular parts are the ones that protest against the Islamic law that is in just. The pattern that I see it is that any place where they have instituted 'Islamic Law' there is great injustice. "Islamic law" is claimed to be based on the Koran.. by all the theological governments that practice it. They claim to be using the teachings of Islam.

Are you saying they are not practicing 'True Islam'? What are all the Islamiic Theocracies unjust, ?

Can you give some examples of the countries that are instituting Islamic Law that have injustice?

Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the trial areas of Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. There are some places in Africa such as Nigeria and the Sudan that it has been instituted also that I find unjust. I will also say that there are 'honor killings' in Jordan that the authorities have a 'hands off' approach.