On prayer

[FinalEnigma]

This thread was spawned by a discussion here: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 574#222574

Hi Final, Good to hear from you friend. I would say a couple of things about praying. Some things take a long time. Other's are right away. Not only is the act of praying an art of becoming completly sincere. The act of receiving the answer is an art of becoming receptive and intuitive to the many ways an answer may reach you. You may have heard this many times Final. But it is something that takes a while to distinguish.

Actually, despite talking to pastors and such, I've never been told that.

I also think that sometimes the involvement of someone else helps for some reason. I think the reason is to show that co-operative effort is more valuable than solo effort. We are here for each other is one of the simplest and hardest lessons to learn. But in time the profundity of that concept, in regards to being God like or doing God's Will, is not Lost on one. Very Happy Here's a few things to consider about Prayer that may help in the success of One's test. I think one of the most important things is, "If at first you don't succeed, try try again."

Indeed, and I at one point prayed for the same thing day after day for easily over a month. The content of the prayer I don't wish to be public, so if you think it is relevant, Pm me.

Aside from all that is superself in the experience of praying, it should be remembered that ethical prayer is a splendid way to elevate one's ego and reinforce the self for better living and higher attainment. Prayer induces the human ego to look both ways for help: for material aid to the subconscious reservoir of mortal experience, for inspiration and guidance to the superconscious borders of the contact of the material with the spiritual

I can't dispute that, as I don't have the info, and wouldn't care to anyway. I would state however, that my purpose in prayer was only rarely psychological(during the time I was suffering from major depression, prayed for help, and then bad things happened to me/my family)

No prayer can be ethical when the petitioner seeks for selfish advantage over his fellows. Selfish and materialistic praying is incompatible with the ethical religions which are predicated on unselfish and divine love. All such unethical praying reverts to the primitive levels of pseudo magic and is unworthy of advancing civilizations and enlightened religions. Selfish praying transgresses the spirit of all ethics founded on loving justice.

In all your praying be fair; do not expect God to show partiality, to love you more than his other children, your friends, neighbors, even enemies....Egoistic prayers involve confessions and petitions and often consist in requests for material favors. Prayer is somewhat more ethical when it deals with forgiveness and seeks wisdom for enhanced self-control.

While the nonselfish type of prayer is strengthening and comforting, materialistic praying is destined to bring disappointment and disillusionment as advancing scientific discoveries demonstrate that man lives in a physical universe of law and order. The childhood of an individual or a race is characterized by primitive, selfish, and materialistic praying. And, to a certain extent, all such petitions are efficacious in that they unvaryingly lead to those efforts and exertions which are contributory to achieving the answers to such prayers. The real prayer of faith always contributes to the augmentation of the technique of living, even if such petitions are not worthy of spiritual recognition.

To clarify, my prayers were never materialistic(not that I think you are saying they are). I am very much not a materialistic person. Objects, things don't matter to me. People matter to me. Nature matters to me.

My prayers also were not selfish, unless you count "Please God, save me. I don't have the strength to save myself." as selfish. (again. back when I was very depressed.)

from your phrasing above, it almost seems as if one cannot pray for anything that you could possibly be able to tell if it were answered. if you cannot pray for petitions, then you do not seem able to ask for anything, and praying for self-characteristics is not possible to detect answers on, and most likely an answer would be meaningless anyway, as, by your account, praying for it will cause you to develop it yourself anyway.

Prayer must never be so prostituted as to become a substitute for action. All ethical prayer is a stimulus to action and a guide to the progressive striving for idealistic goals of superself-attainment.

How does this apply to prayers for something that you cannot possibly affect yourself. I never prayed for anything I thought I could effect myself, because it would seem ridiculous and lazy.

If you would like to try an experiment with me either on thread or via PM I would be more than amenable to such a joint effort. Peace be with you friend.

Potentially possible, but i want to understand before I would do so.

[joer]

Final Wrote:

Hi Final, Good to hear from you friend. I would say a couple of things about praying. Some things take a long time. Other's are right away. Not only is the act of praying an art of becoming completly sincere. The act of receiving the answer is an art of becoming receptive and intuitive to the many ways an answer may reach you. You may have heard this many times Final. But it is something that takes a while to distinguish.

Actually, despite talking to pastors and such, I've never been told that.

I also think that sometimes the involvement of someone else helps for some reason. I think the reason is to show that co-operative effort is more valuable than solo effort. We are here for each other is one of the simplest and hardest lessons to learn. But in time the profundity of that concept, in regards to being God like or doing God's Will, is not Lost on one. Very Happy Here's a few things to consider about Prayer that may help in the success of One's test. I think one of the most important things is, "If at first you don't succeed, try try again."

Indeed, and I at one point prayed for the same thing day after day for easily over a month. The content of the prayer I don't wish to be public, so if you think it is relevant, Pm me.

Good to hear from you Final. Thanks for the reply and moving this here so we don't hijack the other thread.

I'm not surprised they (the pastors and ministers and so on) didn't tell what I shared with you on prayer in those first two quotes. That was from my personal experience. I learn experientially over many years The other stuff below that was just general stuff on prayer that I thought was interesting and from my experience, some of that stuff I've found True. I don't really know about the ego stuff I don't think of myself that way day to day. But in looking back on it and my little bit of understanding of what the ego is, it made sense to me.

You wrote:

I at one point prayed for the same thing day after day for easily over a month.

I glad you shared this Final it remided me of a certain point in my life when I prayed like I never prayed before. I was in crisis. The best way to share this with you I think is by sharing this post I made to a poster on another site. He was totally depressed because he had caught his fiancee doing his best friend. Here's the post I made to him:

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: Can Someone Help?

Wow Chris! I guess I’m a little late. I’ve been going over some new threads tonight and I came across Yours. Wow! What a shock. Also tremendously moving. I empathize with you so much. I had a similar experience in 1995 and it was a life changing experience. I can relate whole heartedly to your pain. I’m so moved that you trusted people here enough to share your experience with us. By the looks of the answers that was a good idea.

My answer will be a little different. I suspected my wife of eight years was fooling around and she was. My brother was 37 dying of cancer at the time. I love my brother very much. We were close. It pained my that my wife fooling around on me hurt me more than my brother’s dying. It was like he didn’t have a choice and she did.

I loved her more than I had ever loved another woman. She keep blaming me for the problems in our relationship. Being jealous, possessive controlling etc. etc. I got us marriage counseling. Often she didn’t go I went by myself. I try to change. Everything she criticized me on. I tried to do better. I had been married once before for eight years and had lived with a girlfriend before that for five years. I always had long term committed relationships and didn’t fool around when I was in one.

I was getting ready to reduce work from full time to part time because the kids were missing so much school. She went to school nights after I got home from work and often came home late and had been drinking. One day I found a letter on the ground in front of the mail box went I was leaving for work in the morning. I picked it up and opened the mailbox and started to put it in when I noticed it was perfumed had a sexy Marilyn Monroe stamp on it. And little love notes on the outside. It was to her lover. I read it and I can’t begin to tell the amount of shock I went into. Once I was almost knocked out playing football. Everything was fuzzy I lost my peripheral vision I was some what lost and it took me a few minutes to get oriented again. That’s just what it felt like. My body went into shock. At first I couldn’t believe it or didn’t want too. One of the first thoughts that came to my mind was going back home catching them in the act and shooting them both.

That’s how crazy I was in that instant. Well Chris, it actually began a time of my life when from the depths of my despair I got closer to God than I had ever been before. But it was because I prayed constantly to God. I used every time I got violent thoughts in my head as a trigger to pray. I prayed to God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus to get those thoughts out of my head. Get the devil’s thoughts out of my head. At work I cried. As a computer consultant, I cried sometimes with clients and my boss present. Tears would just start rolling down my face. It was difficult and my boss urged me to try to control it but he was very understanding too. They let me work part time and allowed me to have full benefits. I told them I didn’t mind if they reduced my salary just don’t take away my benefits. I started taking care of my kids half time. I took them to all their doctor and dentist appointments. Family counseling, sports and went to all their meetings at school. They’re absences and tardies went from 39 a semester to 1 or 2. Their grades started improving and we went through some very difficult times. A lot of crying. I did a lot of praying.

Well it was after about 6 months of praying, Oh yes I started going to church services on Thursday nights and every morning before work if I could. I did find comfort in reaching out to God in my hour of need. But I still suffered. I would do stuff with family and friends in my spare time. Before I had gotten married I had prayed to God to help me make a decision wether to dedicate my life to serving family and friends or get married and dedicate myself to my immediate family. I choose having a family. So when I split up with my wife it wasn’t difficult to dedicate myself to serving others, kind of like Uncle Bill suggested. Anyway after 6 months, relaxing at my sister’s house alone one afternoon, I got my first answer from GOD on my violent fantasies. I was praying to God to help me get them out of my mind. I had asked God what should I do and I got the answer “Tell them (my wife and her lover) when they do something wrong like that is goes against anyone in their lives who have tried to teach them to do right.� I answered God, “That’s not going to help, They’ll just lie and continue doing the same thing. The only thing that might change their mind is a Two by Four up the side of their head!� Then I realized that, that wouldn’t help either, they would still keep lying and cheating. So I asked God again what can I do to make them change?� And God answered me “ You don’t tell them that to make them change! You tell them that because it’s the right thing for you to do.� I still didn’t get what God was telling me. I protested, “But they won’t even listen to me and they’ll keep doing the same stuff. How many times do I have to tell them that.� God said, "You keep telling them that over and over again even if they don’t listen for the rest of their lives, BECAUSE IT’s THE RIGHT THING FOR YOU TO DO.�

Then I got it. I felt so stupid. I was thankful that God was so patient with me. I really wanted to kick that guy's ass. Which is what I’m NOT SUPPOSE TO DO. So that was the beginning of the end of my violent thoughts and plans for fixing that guy. It was very hard for me to let go. But through prayer and patience and faith in God after a couple of years my crying finally stopped. I had one more epiphany and my path of healing was set. I was blaming my wife for fooling around and not being a good mother and thus causing my pain. People always tell you to be wary of expectations. But I didn’t know I was having them. Until one night I figured it out. I WAS CAUSING MY OWN PAIN. Because I was expecting her to be different than what she was. I realized she was a liar and cheater and I remembered that I had lied in my own life. In That moment I accepted her as a liar and cheater and didn’t have any false expectations of her being the faithful wife and responsible mother. I found by accepting her for who she was I could love her again. NOT as MY WIFE I would never want a person like that for my wife. BUT as a human being imperfect as I am imperfect.

Almost immediately I stop fighting with her, the fighting was terrible for the children. I went to see her to get the kids and she was yelling and screaming at me and I wasn’t affected by it at all. I felt sorry for her and said something like I don’t want to fight anymore. I had finally let it go.

Chris I can’t tell you how thankful I am now that I went through that. Because it was a humbling experience and it really changed me inside. If I would’ve have followed my MACHO character to it’s logical conclusion I would’ve killed them both and spent the rest of my life in jail. But thanks to God and that healing I’ve been getting better ever since. It’s helped me in all my relationships and with helping to resolve similar struggles between other family members. It’s really been a blessing.

My advise to you Chris pray, pray and pray some more. Any instant you feel bad, pray to God for guidance no matter where you’re at. Laundromat, grocery store, church, work, play, family friends, driving. Anywhere. Pray. And go to counseling. Be careful in counseling I couldn’t tell my counselors about my fantasies of killing or attacking because they disclose to you right at the beginning that they have to report dangerous stuff to the police. But I had plenty of other stuff I could share with them. We found one counselor finally and we pray before and after each session that my girls and I have been going to for nine years now when ever we have an emotional problem.

So anyway Chris. Don’t worry if it hurts for awhile. Have faith and keep doing positive things for yourself and those around you. You’re a good guy Chris. I’ve seen it online. You’ll get through this and have patience, when your done you’ll be stronger for it. Don’t forget to Pary! Trust in God. God Bless You brother!

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:11 pm

Dear Joer,

I don't know what to say. I mean you've been through a lot of the same things as me, and you understand so well what I'm going through. Thank you so much for your advice and experinece. I know it is going to hurt for awhile, but I know God is going to help me through it. I mean it, thank you so much Joer, you've helped me more than anyone else that I've talked to. Thanks brother.

~Chris

The point I was trying to make to you here Final, is sometimes we don't now how long we are going to have to pray brother. I was desperate for an answer during the six months I was waiting for it. I was looking at everything in my life to see if there was an answer for me somewhere in something. But it was like the Praying was making me ready, preparing me, getting me into the right state of mind, so as to BE ABLE to receive and take to heart the difficult answer and lesson I needed to learn. And the answer was totally unexpected.

I wanted an answer about how to deal with THEM. Something outside of myself. Instead I got an answer on how I should deal with it Myself. "you do it that way because it's the right thing for you to do." I don't know how it did it. But my praying had prepared me to learn a profound lesson in HUMILITY. My character was literally so screwed up Final that I thought killing them for fooling around on me was the right thing to do. How screwed up is that? Pretty screwed up. And I was changed to the roots of my character Final.

I know people who have gone to counseling for twenty years and have never even gotten close to a change like that.

When you think about it like that Final it starts to make sense. Sometimes we have to pray a long time to get what we are praying for, because it takes that long to get us ready. I've had other prayers answered within minutes after praying. Simpler things don't take as long. But they are not as dramatic either as those that occupy the feelings and depths of personality at the center of your being.


Peace be with you brother. I look forward to your post.

[FinalEnigma]

Final Wrote:

Hi Final, Good to hear from you friend. I would say a couple of things about praying. Some things take a long time. Other's are right away. Not only is the act of praying an art of becoming completly sincere. The act of receiving the answer is an art of becoming receptive and intuitive to the many ways an answer may reach you. You may have heard this many times Final. But it is something that takes a while to distinguish.

Actually, despite talking to pastors and such, I've never been told that.

I also think that sometimes the involvement of someone else helps for some reason. I think the reason is to show that co-operative effort is more valuable than solo effort. We are here for each other is one of the simplest and hardest lessons to learn. But in time the profundity of that concept, in regards to being God like or doing God's Will, is not Lost on one. Very Happy Here's a few things to consider about Prayer that may help in the success of One's test. I think one of the most important things is, "If at first you don't succeed, try try again."

Indeed, and I at one point prayed for the same thing day after day for easily over a month. The content of the prayer I don't wish to be public, so if you think it is relevant, Pm me.

I'm not surprised they (the pastors and ministers and so on) didn't tell what I shared with you on prayer in those first two quotes. That was from my personal experience. I learn experientially over many years The other stuff below that was just general stuff on prayer that I thought was interesting and from my experience, some of that stuff I've found True. I don't really know about the ego stuff I don't think of myself that way day to day. But in looking back on it and my little bit of understanding of what the ego is, it made sense to me.

You wrote:

I at one point prayed for the same thing day after day for easily over a month.

I glad you shared this Final it remided me of a certain point in my life when I prayed like I never prayed before. I was in crisis.

Same thing here, sort of. Bear in mind that I am, and was at the time, an atheist. I don't think there is a God. I don't rule out the possibility, because I'm not arrogant enough to think I know all the answers, but I find the probability of a personal God to be very low. I prayed, daily, for over a month. I really wanted this. But when the situation grew worse, I stopped.

See, even if I did believe in God, I would have a problem with prayer. The first time I can remember praying was when I was younger(maybe 15/16) and depressed, and prayed for help. The next thing that happened, was that both my parents were diagnosed with diabetes, and my grandmother had a heard attack, within a month.

I didn't see this as even possibly related. the thought didn't occur to me.

My next major prayer, was for my parents to take care of their health. My grandmother had died, in her 60s, due to bad health brought on by a lifetime of being overweight, not eating right, and never exercising. I did not want to see my parents do the same. the very same week, my dad was in a car accident, and I was moved from a school I didn't like, to one that was way worse.

I didn't pray after this for a long time.

The next time I can think of, was about 2 1/2-3 years ago, while I was in the army. my battle-buddy suffered depression, as I did. He was feeling really bad for a few days, so I prayed for God to help him. He killed himself shortly after that (which caused me more depression, and PTSD, because I was there, and he used a rifle).

the next time I prayed, I will send details in a PM about.

After all this happening, I don't pray. I don't believe in God. I don't believe that he is sitting up there punishing me every time I pray, I just have a combination of bad timing, and a tendency to pray when situations appear to be getting bad - then they continue as they would have anyway.

But I'm still not very inclined to prayer.

The point I was trying to make to you here Final, is sometimes we don't now how long we are going to have to pray brother. I was desperate for an answer during the six months I was waiting for it. I was looking at everything in my life to see if there was an answer for me somewhere in something. But it was like the Praying was making me ready, preparing me, getting me into the right state of mind, so as to BE ABLE to receive and take to heart the difficult answer and lesson I needed to learn. And the answer was totally unexpected.

I don't mean to diminish your situation or prayer at all, but it seems very much to me like you could easily have answered your own prayer. Can you know somehow that you did not?

I wanted an answer about how to deal with THEM. Something outside of myself. Instead I got an answer on how I should deal with it Myself. "you do it that way because it's the right thing for you to do." I don't know how it did it. But my praying had prepared me to learn a profound lesson in HUMILITY. My character was literally so screwed up Final that I thought killing them for fooling around on me was the right thing to do. How screwed up is that? Pretty screwed up. And I was changed to the roots of my character Final.

If prayer, as it seems to be, is self-centric, in that it only seems to alter you, then it seems to be much in the line of self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don't mean to be redundant, but sometime I need to be hit over the head with an answer to get it. so, can you pray for something outside of yourself? will you get any answer that affects others? such as prayers for health/happiness and the like for people you know.

was I praying for things too big? things that just happened to not coincide with God's plans?

but now...I don't play games with gods anymore. If they are there, they don't seem to like me much. If they aren't there, they won't answer me anyway. If I hear a good reason to pray, maybe I will, but...why? why would anyone in my situation ever pray?

[joer]

Hi Final, Good to hear from you. you wrote:

I don't mean to diminish your situation or prayer at all, but it seems very much to me like you could easily have answered your own prayer. Can you know somehow that you did not?

We do answer our own prayer in a sense. Think about it Final. Psychologically you do have the power of positive affirmation and self-fulfilling prophesy. Your positive attitude toward what you want or are praying for is Critical in achieving the success of the prayer. That’s the problem Final. People expect miracles or magic. It’s not like that it’s a natural process where we effect any natural help we can get by co-operating with an envisioned power of solution. Let me share some stuff with you.

When men [or women] pray for providential intervention in the circumstances of life, many times the answer to their prayer is their own changed attitudes toward life.

If prayer, as it seems to be, is self-centric, in that it only seems to alter you, then it seems to be much in the line of self-fulfilling prophecy.

The thing is Final. We don’t know how much of it is US and how much is OTHER. And it doesn’t matter. What matters is doing what works. AND being sincere about it. One’s doubts are the blocks to one ‘s own answer. Consider this:

No prayer can hope for an answer unless it is born of the spirit and nurtured by faith. Your sincere faith implies that you have in advance virtually granted your prayer hearers the full right to answer your petitions in accordance with that supreme wisdom and that divine love which your faith depicts as always actuating those beings to whom you pray.

I don't mean to be redundant, but sometime I need to be hit over the head with an answer to get it. so, can you pray for something outside of yourself?

YES

Prayer is an antidote for harmful introspection. At least, prayer as the Master taught it is such a beneficent ministry to the soul. Jesus consistently employed the beneficial influence of praying for one's fellows. The Master usually prayed in the plural, not in the singular. Only in the great crises of his earth life did Jesus ever pray for himself.

The sincerity of any prayer is the assurance of its being heard; the spiritual wisdom and universe consistency of any petition is the determiner of the time, manner, and degree of the answer. A wise father does not literally answer the foolish prayers of his ignorant and inexperienced children, albeit the children may derive much pleasure and real soul satisfaction from the making of such absurd petitions.

will you get any answer that affects others? such as prayers for health/happiness and the like for people you know.

Prayer is not a technique for curing real and organic diseases, but it has contributed enormously to the enjoyment of abundant health and to the cure of numerous mental, emotional, and nervous ailments. And even in actual bacterial disease, prayer has many times added to the efficacy of other remedial procedures. Prayer has turned many an irritable and complaining invalid into a paragon of patience and made him an inspiration to all other human sufferers.

was I praying for things too big? things that just happened to not coincide with God's plans?

Prayer is the sincere and longing look of the child to its spirit Father; it is a psychologic process of exchanging the human will for the divine will. Prayer is a part of the divine plan for making over that which is into that which ought to be.

When you have become wholly dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven, the answer to all your petitions will be forthcoming because your prayers will be in full accordance with the Father's will, and the Father's will is ever manifest throughout his vast universe. What the true son desires and the infinite Father wills IS. Such a prayer cannot remain unanswered, and no other sort of petition can possibly be fully answered.

When men pray for providential intervention in the circumstances of life, many times the answer to their prayer is their own changed attitudes toward life. But providence is not whimsical, neither is it fantastic nor magical. It is the slow and sure emergence of the mighty sovereign of the finite universes, whose majestic presence the evolving creatures occasionally detect in their universe progressions. Providence is the sure and certain march of the galaxies of space and the personalities of time toward the goals of eternity, first in the Supreme, then in the Ultimate, and perhaps in the Absolute. And in infinity we believe there is the same providence, and this is the will, the actions, the purpose of the Paradise Trinity thus motivating the cosmic panorama of universes upon universes.

but now...I don't play games with gods anymore. If they are there, they don't seem to like me much. If they aren't there, they won't answer me anyway.

The conscious and persistent regard for iniquity in the heart of man gradually destroys the prayer connection of the human soul with the spirit circuits of communication between man and his Maker. Naturally God hears the petition of his child, but when the human heart deliberately and persistently harbors the concepts of iniquity, there gradually ensues the loss of personal communion between the earth child and his heavenly Father.

The sincerity of any prayer is the assurance of its being heard; the spiritual wisdom and universe consistency of any petition is the determiner of the time, manner, and degree of the answer. A wise father does not literally answer the foolish prayers of his ignorant and inexperienced children, albeit the children may derive much pleasure and real soul satisfaction from the making of such absurd petitions.

If I hear a good reason to pray, maybe I will, but...why? why would anyone in my situation ever pray?

Do not hesitate to pray the prayers of spirit longing; doubt not that you shall receive the answer to your petitions. These answers will be on deposit, awaiting your achievement of those future spiritual levels of actual cosmic attainment, on this world or on others, whereon it will become possible for you to recognize and appropriate the long-waiting answers to your earlier but ill-timed petitions.

By opening the human end of the channel of the God-man communication, mortals make immediately available the ever-flowing stream of divine ministry to the creatures of the worlds. When man hears God's spirit speak within the human heart, inherent in such an experience is the fact that God simultaneously hears that man's prayer. Even the forgiveness of sin operates in this same unerring fashion. The Father in heaven has forgiven you even before you have thought to ask him, but such forgiveness is not available in your personal religious experience until such a time as you forgive your fellow men. God's forgiveness in fact is not conditioned upon your forgiving your fellows, but in experience it is exactly so conditioned. And this fact of the synchrony of divine and human forgiveness was thus recognized and linked together in the prayer which Jesus taught the apostles.

Many resort to prayer only when in trouble. Such a practice is thoughtless and misleading. True, you do well to pray when harassed, but you should also be mindful to speak as a son to your Father even when all goes well with your soul. Let your real petitions always be in secret. Do not let men hear your personal prayers. Prayers of thanksgiving are appropriate for groups of worshipers, but the prayer of the soul is a personal matter. There is but one form of prayer which is appropriate for all God's children, and that is: "Nevertheless, your will be done."

[FinalEnigma]

I may have to get back to you later, my computer crashed - on my laptop atm, but don't really have tons of time and have to fix my computer.

[joer]

I may have to get back to you later, my computer crashed - on my laptop atm, but don't really have tons of time and have to fix my computer.

OK my brother. I await your return. Take your time. Come back when ready. I got all eternity. I'm not worried. We will get to it when it's time.

Good Will to you brother. I wish you success with your laptop. Peace be with you.

[Zzyzx]

.
Joer,

I am not surprised to read that your belief in prayer and/or supernaturalism is related to or reinforced by emotional experiences with an unfaithful spouse and failed relationships.

Many of us have encountered similar conditions and have felt betrayed by a once trusted partner.

However, not everyone requires supernatural assistance (real or imagined) to deal with our situation. Without prayer or psychological counseling many of us were capable of deciding that the person was not trustworthy and that we did not want to continue a relationship with such a person.

The decision, in my case, did not require any large amount of time (for "prayer" or emoting). I evaluated the situation and did what was necessary – severed the relationship and went on with my life (without any need for counseling or waiting to see if prayers would work). At no time did I feel any need for "prayer" or for assistance from "god" or anyone else to understand and accept the situation and to take appropriate action.

Perhaps prayer or "supernatural assistance" is necessary for some people to deal with such situations. However, it is a gross mistake for those who require prayer and assistance to conclude that the same applies others.

Those who require or prefer supernatural beliefs in the conduct of their lives seem incapable of understanding that others have no such need or desire. They often or usually project their own needs onto others who have no such needs.

This may illustrate much of the difference between how you and I as individuals deal with life experiences.

Regardless of position, a wise person is cautious about advising others to follow his / her paths. Each person experiences a unique journey in life. "The answer" for one is not the answer for all. Prayer may help some in need – but be a hindrance or distraction to others.

Z

[joer]

Z wrote:

Regardless of position, a wise person is cautious about advising others to follow his / her paths. Each person experiences a unique journey in life. "The answer" for one is not the answer for all. Prayer may help some in need – but be a hindrance or distraction to others.

Z

Hey Z , Thanks for the advice. It was generous of you to share from your personal experience. I'm glad your situation worked out well for you. You are right that we all have our own way of dealing with things. But I have noticed that sometimes sharing your experience helps someone.

While I would never advise anyone to do what I did. I would advise them to do what seems right for them. because as you know we all have that innate Subjective ability to subjectively choose what works for us.

Thanks again Z. For your sharing and advice. Good Will to you brother.

[FinalEnigma]

Hi Final, Good to hear from you. you wrote:

I don't mean to diminish your situation or prayer at all, but it seems very much to me like you could easily have answered your own prayer. Can you know somehow that you did not?

We do answer our own prayer in a sense. Think about it Final. Psychologically you do have the power of positive affirmation and self-fulfilling prophesy. Your positive attitude toward what you want or are praying for is Critical in achieving the success of the prayer. That’s the problem Final. People expect miracles or magic. It’s not like that it’s a natural process where we effect any natural help we can get by co-operating with an envisioned power of solution.

So prayer has changed from what it was in the bible? or was it only Jesus and the disciples that prayed for overt, physical things and received them?

And, to be certain, prayers for overt physical miracles/things will not be granted?

when you pray, the effect will only be upon your own mindset? or is it a bit broader than that?

When men [or women] pray for providential intervention in the circumstances of life, many times the answer to their prayer is their own changed attitudes toward life.

This would seem very odd. People don't want changed attitudes. I realize God doesn't care what people want, hes doing his own thing, but this brings me to-

I'm not sure what prayer does for me. It doesn't seem useful for anything. If I want to change my attitude on some aspect of life which is negative to me, or if I (justifiably) want to feel better about an event that happened and I cannot effect this myself(which I am becoming able to do much more easily), I'll talk to a therapist, or, if I don't want to waste the money, have a 30 minute conversation with a friend of mine, and my whole outlook on the situation becomes more positive.

When I prayed for my friend in the army, I didn't want to be accepting of the situation, I wanted him to feel better. Changing my views on the matter wasn't going to help anything. If my prayer can't help a sick friend, or help starving children across the world, then what use is it?

[joer]

Final wrote:

So prayer has changed from what it was in the bible? or was it only Jesus and the disciples that prayed for overt, physical things and received them?

What was it in the Bible? What overt physical things did JC and the apostles pray for and receive? Do you have a specific example?
You also write:

And, to be certain, prayers for overt physical miracles/things will not be granted?

That’s not what I get out of this answer:

Prayer is not a technique for curing real and organic diseases, but it has contributed enormously to the enjoyment of abundant health and to the cure of numerous mental, emotional, and nervous ailments. And even in actual bacterial disease, prayer has many times added to the efficacy of other remedial procedures. Prayer has turned many an irritable and complaining invalid into a paragon of patience and made him an inspiration to all other human sufferers.

What I get is that the cure will be quite natural even as far as healing is concerned expedited or accelerated by the act and power of prayer. So you see, we see the same answer quite differently.

You write:

when you pray, the effect will only be upon your own mindset? or is it a bit broader than that?

It’s broader than that:

No prayer can hope for an answer unless it is born of the spirit and nurtured by faith. Your sincere faith implies that you have in advance virtually granted your prayer hearers the full right to answer your petitions in accordance with that supreme wisdom and that divine love which your faith depicts as always actuating those beings to whom you pray.

Do not hesitate to pray the prayers of spirit longing; doubt not that you shall receive the answer to your petitions. These answers will be on deposit, awaiting your achievement of those future spiritual levels of actual cosmic attainment, on this world or on others, whereon it will become possible for you to recognize and appropriate the long-waiting answers to your earlier but ill-timed petitions.



Quote:
You write:

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When men [or women] pray for providential intervention in the circumstances of life, many times the answer to their prayer is their own changed attitudes toward life.

This would seem very odd. People don't want changed attitudes. I realize God doesn't care what people want, hes doing his own thing, but this brings me to-

God Does care my friend. The problem is some people have a hard time seeing or believing that and it affects there capacity to communicate with God.

The sincerity of any prayer is the assurance of its being heard; the spiritual wisdom and universe consistency of any petition is the determiner of the time, manner, and degree of the answer. A wise father does not literally answer the foolish prayers of his ignorant and inexperienced children, albeit the children may derive much pleasure and real soul satisfaction from the making of such absurd petitions.

You write:

I'm not sure what prayer does for me. It doesn't seem useful for anything. If I want to change my attitude on some aspect of life which is negative to me, or if I (justifiably) want to feel better about an event that happened and I cannot effect this myself(which I am becoming able to do much more easily), I'll talk to a therapist, or, if I don't want to waste the money, have a 30 minute conversation with a friend of mine, and my whole outlook on the situation becomes more positive.

Prayer will amplify the positive effects of what you do, if it is sincere and is a good thing that you pray for and a good attitude with which you pray with.

You conclude with:

When I prayed for my friend in the army, I didn't want to be accepting of the situation, I wanted him to feel better. Changing my views on the matter wasn't going to help anything. If my prayer can't help a sick friend, or help starving children across the world, then what use is it?

If it changes your attitude toward the situation to a more positive one. It could be of tremendous use.

Thanks Final for your post.