Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

[Dilettante]

That's an interesting post, Overcomer. But I would like to point out a few things which are missing, even at the risk of sounding like a nit-picker (OK, I'll admit that I am a nit-picker!).

Many people claim that Santa Claus existed. Not the Santa Claus who is believed to bring presents every Christmas, but a sort of "historical Santa" embodied by the figure of a Saint Nicholas of Myra, who is supposed to have been a 3rd century bishop. However, there is no evidence that such a bishop existed. As far as I'm concerned, he may or may not have existed (I tend to think he didn't).

In the case of Jesus we also have the Jesus of faith, the one who is believed to have been the Son of God, and the "historical Jesus", a 1st century Palestinian Jew who was crucified by Pontius Pilate. First-hand, extra-Christian evidence for the historical Jesus does not exist (at least not to the best of my knowledge). The best we have is Josephus, and his testimony is highly controversial, besides not being contemporary.

So, if we are speaking of historical evidence, Jesus is somewhere in between Julius Caesar (overwhelming evidence that he existed) and Saint Nicholas (no evidence at all).

Of course belief in Jesus and belief in Santa are different. A belief in Jesus constitutes what American thinker William James called "a live option". A belief in Santa, on the other hand, is not a "live option" to anyone except perhaps a small child.

P.S.: I never believed in Santa Claus, not even as a child, because in my country the traditional gift-givers are the Three Wise Men. And I do believe that Jesus most likely existed as a 1st century Jew. The difficulty is not in believing that he existed as a historical figure (this is not an extraordinary claim) but in believing that he was God (this is an extraordinary claim).

[Arch]

The difficulty is not in believing that he existed as a historical figure (this is not an extraordinary claim) but in believing that he was God (this is an extraordinary claim).

I concur Dilettante. This is the point that I think either Christians simply can't undestand or refuse to admit that they understand.

A historical Jesus who was an israelite from the tribe of Judah who rebelled against the Roman occupation being upheld by the religious leaders of the time is not far fetched.

It would be almost insane to say that a person rising up during such a time to try to administer to his people is an impossibility. It is more likely that the historical Jesus was crucified for being a rebel and a possible threat to not only the Roman but the religious leadership they allowe to continue in power over the Jews.

However, this assertion does not in anyway give validity to the extraordinary claims made by christians of the divinity of this man. The claims of some divinity in this man is no more valid that the claims of say Alexander the great being a decedant of the GODS.

This claim in no more different then the Egyptian claims that pharoah was the embodiment of GOD.

In fact there is more documentation on the fact that these individuals (alexander and the pharoahs) were either worshipped or noted as being GODS or children of the GODs than there is for Jesus being called this. There is also more proof as to their actually existence and the great things they accomplished.

If we are to believe that Jesus was a GOD simply because of the writing of believers then we should believe that pahroah was GOD as well.

Nimrod is an actually character of the bible ruler of Babylion in his story he is the origination of Christmas. He was GOD and his son Tamuz was the son of GOD according to their story in fact in the bible Israelites were killed by GOD for worhipping Tammuz. His birthday is December 25. He states in the story that upon his death if you erected a tree on his birthday he would come and place present under it. This is the original Santa Clause and according to the bible he is real.

The extraordinary claims of Tammuz's ability to come back from the dead because he was the Son of GOD is the same claims made by Chrisitans of Jesus.

[LillSnopp]

Actually, the American Santa Claus (the overweight type II diabetic one) is based on the Scandinavian and Central Europe´s Santas.

The Scandinavian one, where small evil little things (that you would call pixies because of your lack of knowledge about historian folklore). And these little bastards would get you into mischief if you where´nt nice. (Put out milk and cookies and such at night for example, or else....). The Dutch and Central European version was pretty similar.

The main theme of it is, they where Evil ! /And we are talking pluralism here, not singular)


And i would say that this image is still there (in a way).

First off, the American Santa is overweight, which is a huge problem in the U.S, and instead of trying to show people that its not good, they somehow glorify it, and as the average american is not very bright, they think its a good thing when they see the overweight Santa "Ho Ho" in away, forgetting that the coronary failure is soon coming..

Secondly, it encourages children to get things without have to pay for it. And that you should be nice to all people. This is not very good in a society where money means more then anything. And where the aid donors is almost nonexistent, Preposterous? Indeed it is.

Thirdly, it encourages children to believe in things without proof, similar to Christianity. This is early childhood indoctrination, which i think is the worst crime you can commit, but nonetheless ok in the U.S. The parents ask the child what they want from "Santa", and they tell them, afterwards they go and buy the gift, and tell the child Santa came and left it here. I know its normal in the U.S to lie to your children, but as a Swede, i am ashamed, and as a Human Being, appalled. Dont you want your children to be intelligent and logical? Clearly not.


Anyways, that was my 5 € (that would be 6.4$).

[Arch]

and as the average american is not very bright, they think its a good thing when they see the overweight Santa "Ho Ho" in away, forgetting that the coronary failure is soon coming..

What is up with all this anti American rhetoric. I don't think it has anything to do with the topic at hand. Goodness

I for one never taught my child to believe in Santa Clause nor has many people that I know.

The celebration of Christmas and its inclusion of pagan practices is religious in nature. It is not a concept of nationality.

It is obvious that Christianity is combined with the many pagan beliefs that preceded it. Christmas the mass of christ or the mass of tammuz is just one of them.

Easter is another.

The obvious link between Christmas and Tammuz is actually written in a book by Christians. The symbol of the X or the toppled over cross was a symbol used by Tammuz. This is why Christmas is interchangeable with Xmas.

In AMERICA there are even Christians who do not celebrate this holiday. However that is not the topic of this thread. The topic is why are some extraordinary claims believed and others are not and that the same reasoning used to explain Jesus and the Christian GOD can be used to explain Santa Clause.

Neither would be verifiable.

[LillSnopp]

In AMERICA there are even Christians who do not celebrate this holiday.

*America


America, or The Americas, are Two Continents in the western hemisphere (sometimes Central America is also mentioned, but this is part of both North and South).

Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Peru, Cuba are some examples of countries in The Americas (Both North and South).


One Nation in the Americas define their own country as "America", because of lack of knowledge and poor education, seemingly not understanding that your country is not a Continent, and part of a Continent is not very important, because these people also think that the Sun orbits Tellus, and most likely, that Tellus is the center of the Universe. (Tellus, Terra or Gaia would be the name of our planet)

You could draw a similar parallel to a Swede, calling his country Scandinavia, which would consist of Norway, Denmark and Sweden. As this is not correct, and Swedish people in general get proper education, they refer to their own country as Sweden, as this is the correct definition (And not Scandinavia). At the same time, they also refer to United States, as, United States, because they have the knowledge about America being a Continent.




Next week, we are going to talk about how the Sun does not orbit Tellus, and how come we dont fall down from the planet, even when its a sphere.

[Arch]

LillSnopp

Not that this is the place to argue this but,

First off, the American Santa is overweight, which is a huge problem in the U.S,

Is it not you who used this exact term? When you said "The American" Santa am I to assume that you meant the view of Santa shared across both the continents of the Americas in all the countries that are in them.

No
I would say I was correct in assuming you meant the view of Santa in the US.

Secondly, not only do Americans call the US "America" but so do many across the US including people in Sweden. I have personally heard a Swedish person during the Olympics refer to the US as America.

Finally in case you haven't noticed, the entire name is the United States of America. Called America and the US for short. Of all the countries situated in North and South America. This is the only one I know of that actually contains America in it's name. If there is another please enlighten me.

and if you doubt that you fellow swedes call the US America here are a few sites to help cure you of that delimma.

Swedes living in the USA
An online community dedicated to helping Swedes in America Connect!
www.swedesinamerica.com

Note it says in America not The Americas which is the term used when referencing the continents.

Even if you look it up in a dictionary "America" the first defintion is The United States. The second defintion references the continents.

I having traveled to Europe, Africa and South America Know personally that the term America in reference to the US is widely used. You on the other hand might not know that.

However, you might want to come up with something a little less asinine to back your theory that Americans are unintelligent.

In fact it is your ridiculous assertions that make you seem to be the one of little intelligence. Because for you to profess the belief that Americans call their country America because they believe it to be an entire continent is pure stupidity. Should I contribute this insanity to your upbringing in Sweden.

I, being the intellectual I am, would not.

[LillSnopp]

Finally in case you haven't noticed, the entire name is the United States of America*.Called America and the US for short. Of all the countries situated in North and South America. This is the only one I know of that actually contains America in it's name. If there is another please enlighten me.

Ignorance is not an excuse. I suspect people have started to refer to United States as "America" outside the borders, because else americans would not know what they are talking about. Simple, because you guys have become so ignorant about your own country, everyone else simple adopted the term because they know you would never learn and evolve yourself.

Even if you look it up in a dictionary "America" the first defintion is The United States. The second defintion references the continents.

Like i said, ignorance is still not an excuse. I can draw references to Americans Calling CHINA and RUSSIA Communist, when its clearly not, why? Because you do not know what communism actually means. Hence, your argument fails.

Because for you to profess the belief that Americans call their country America because they believe it to be an entire continent is pure stupidity.

I presume you are talking about the small minority that can find their own country on a map?


*(Sweden is part of Scandinavia, yet, it is not called Scandinavia, Germany is part of Europe, yet its only called Europe by americans because of ignorance(you think Europe is a country)

[Corvus]

You were right four posts up, Arch, when you siad that this all has nothing to do with the topic, and two posts up when you said this isn't place to argue. Both of you know better. Come on, folks, can't we all just get along and debate religion peacefully? It doesn't matter who is right. Let's stick to the topic before I'm forced to give out formal warnings or close the thread.

Lillsnopp, try to keep your thoughts on Americans to yourself. You are baiting and insulting the vast majority of the forum, most of which are quite intelligent and rational beings, no matter their citizenship.

[Arch]

You were right four posts up, Arch, when you siad that this all has nothing to do with the topic, and two posts up when you said this isn't place to argue. Both of you know better. Come on, folks, can't we all just get along and debate religion peacefully? It doesn't matter who is right. Let's stick to the topic before I'm forced to give out formal warnings or close the thread.

Lillsnopp, try to keep your thoughts on Americans to yourself. You are baiting and insulting the vast majority of the forum, most of which are quite intelligent and rational beings, no matter their citizenship.

You are correct Corvus. Funny thing is I actually came in to find out what LilSnopp had added to the the conversation in this thread. I was shocked to find that the majority of his post was an insult to the citizens of the US.

But anywhooo you are still correct.

[LillSnopp]

You are correct Corvus. Funny thing is I actually came in to find out what LilSnopp had added to the the conversation in this thread. I was shocked to find that the majority of his post was an insult to the citizens of the US.

LillSnopp, Two L´s. It´s not that hard.


I thought i said earlier. The main thing is, if you are a Christian, believing in the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, and God, it would be a paradox not to believe in Santa Claus, as Santa has more evidence for his existence then Jesus.

And this is also the reason to why I dont believe in God, because neither do i believe in Santa, as the evidence in my eyes, are lacking. And as a reasonable human being, i do not believe in things for no reason.