Who created God?

[Illyricum]

I seen this question many times so I decided to start thread on it. Some people have asked the question "If their is a God, who created him and how has he always existed?" Anyone?

[Guy Trudel]

Hello, this is my first time here.

I could never accept the God of the Bible as no loving parent would do what God did.

I could never deliberately bring into life a child totally unlike myself out of love.

I could never place that newborn child in some distant dangerous place where he could become harmed.

If God is a perfect creator, then all of God's creation must be perfect. If the creation is flawed, then the creator cannot be a perfect creator.

Flaw can only be an effect. What is the cause other than God's design?

What is that Truth that shall set us free? God made a blunder but blamed Adam and Eve for disobeying His command not to seek knowledge?

That He sentenced all of mankind for the sins of two?

Are we really to believe this is a God of Love when our own judicial system would never punish the innocent?

I wonder what the Truth that frees us really is?

Doesn't Christianity teach that through faith we are free?

Faith in the "truth" that God kills all in the flood, Kills His "only" begotten Son (what does that make us?) and then in the final act - because we don't have faith in what He does - all but "144,000 virgin men undefiled by women" will make it into the new world?

Or could it be something else?

Just wondering what makes sense.

[cattious]

If God has always existed, then why can't it be possible that the universe always existed?

If the universe has always existed, then we'd have already experienced the heat death.

Heat death is still just a theory, just as any other proposed ends of the universe. The only means we have of testing it are waiting until the end of the universe and watching.

Everything has to have a beginning; if it didn't have a beginning, it has always been. and that just doesn't make sense.

Everything that exists in time must have a beginning. Since God exists outside of time, it has no "beginning".

How does God exist outside of time? And what reason do you have to believe that he does?

[seekinghokmah]

This post along with Guys probably belong elsewhere, being new to the site I'm not sure how or where to move it to. Perhaps an admin could help out.
For what it’s worth, the statements by Guy simply demonstrate ignorance of what Judaism and Christianity actually teach. If what he describes where accurate…I’d be the first to congratulate anyone who rejected it. lol

I could never accept the God of the Bible as no loving parent would do what God did.
I could never deliberately bring into life a child totally unlike myself out of love.

Mankind was created in God’s image…meaning we have free will, so mankind was not created “totally unlike” God.

I could never place that newborn child in some distant dangerous place where he could become harmed.

Mankind placed itself in danger by leaving God’s presence and perfect provision.

If God is a perfect creator, then all of God's creation must be perfect. If the creation is flawed, then the creator cannot be a perfect creator.

The creation was created perfect “very good” in the words of Genesis, the flaw was introduced by His creation exercising free will in opposition to Him.

Flaw can only be an effect. What is the cause other than God's design?

Can we really blame God for our choices?

What is that Truth that shall set us free? God made a blunder but blamed Adam and Eve for disobeying His command not to seek knowledge?

They were not condemned for seeking knowledge, but rather for exercising free will in disobedience to God. The verb “to know” in the Hebrew of Genesis implies “intimate knowledge of”….the possibility of sin existed, Adam and Eve chose to actualize it and gain intimate knowledge of good and evil by experiencing both.

That He sentenced all of mankind for the sins of two?

We are condemned by our own faults…not theirs

Are we really to believe this is a God of Love when our own judicial system would never punish the innocent?

Pretty high view of our own judicial system. Civil law has nothing to do with right and wrong, but only of preserving order in society, true morality must come from outside of humanity… we will always change our laws when they become inconvenient. True morality is immutable. The whole point of God allowing us to continue as we are is that He doesn't violate our free will...but ultimately proves that He IS a just judge...so no one innocent is ever condemned (problem is none of us are innocent)

I wonder what the Truth that frees us really is?

Accepting the free payment by God Himself in order to restore us to His perfect presence.

Doesn't Christianity teach that through faith we are free?

Yes, faith = trusting in what He accomplished for us, that He will keep His end of the bargain if we choose to follow His ways instead of our own.

Faith in the "truth" that God kills all in the flood, Kills His "only" begotten Son (what does that make us?) and then in the final act - because we don't have faith in what He does - all but "144,000 virgin men undefiled by women" will make it into the new world?

Big issues here, several things pulled way out of context. If God is truly perfect then He surely had just cause to destroy those in the flood who made themselves unredeemable. God offered Himself as the sacrifice (not the place to explain the trinity). It doesn’t say virgin, it says undefiled by women (meaning outside of the acceptable means of copulation as provided by God-again not the place to explain the significance of marriage). The 144 000 are Jews from each of the 12 tribes…Revelation speaks specifically to the Jews from chapter 4 on. It certainly doesn’t suggest that in all of creation only the 144 000 are to be saved. Actually God doesn’t send anyone to Hell (eternal separation from Him), rather they go because they choose not to go to heaven.
Great questions Guy! I'm interested to know what you think.

[agnostic_pilgrim]

If God has always existed, then why can't it be possible that the universe always existed?

If the universe has always existed, then why can't it be possible that God has always existed?


The theists and non-theists are guilty of the same thing - asserting something that isn't proven.

If the existence a certain entity is not proven, the default and most reasonable position is that, "the entity does not exist."

[otseng]

Heat death is still just a theory, just as any other proposed ends of the universe. The only means we have of testing it are waiting until the end of the universe and watching.

The Heat death is a natural conclusion from the laws of Thermo. Yes, there are other proposed ends to the universe. But I was addressing why the universe couldn't have always existed. If the universe has existed for an infinite time, it would've already experienced the heat death.

How does God exist outside of time? And what reason do you have to believe that he does?

It is strongly implied in the Bible.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here in verse 5, it refers to the first day. Though this refers to a day on planet Earth, in verse 1, it refers to the beginning.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Since God created the entire universe (and time along with it), therefore God is outside of time.

[otseng]

If God has always existed, then why can't it be possible that the universe always existed?

See my previous posts on the heat death.

The theists and non-theists are guilty of the same thing - asserting something that isn't proven.

Well, there are a lot of things that we believe in that can't be proven. I don't think proving something is necessary in order to believe in it. As long as there are some rational justification to believe (or not believe) in something, I feel that is sufficient.

[Corvus]

If God has always existed, then why can't it be possible that the universe always existed?

See my previous posts on the heat death.

But, as I stated in my previous post, the universe could never exist forever only in its current state. It's quite possible heat death, the big bang or the big crunch is just another stage in the lifecycle of a universe.

The theists and non-theists are guilty of the same thing - asserting something that isn't proven.

Well, there are a lot of things that we believe in that can't be proven. I don't think proving something is necessary in order to believe in it. As long as there are some rational justification to believe (or not believe) in something, I feel that is sufficient.

Yes, this is true. Things can be proven through facts, evidence, logic or inference. We have never observed to the planets orbiting the sun.

The problem with God is that what's logical to some isn't so to others.

[Yahweh]

Everything has to have a beginning; if it didn't have a beginning, it has always been. and that just doesn't make sense.

Everything that exists in time must have a beginning. Since God exists outside of time, it has no "beginning".[/quote]
The phrase "exist outside of time" does not carry any meaning (it is about as meaningful as saying "red exists outside of color"). A lot of people use that phrase without really understanding the implications.

People are under the misconception that the universe exists at some era in time in some point in space. It sounds logical because it sounds intuitively correct (commonsense)... of course contrary to commonsense, the space and time exist within the universe (not the other way around).

The reason why the statement is incorrect is simply that it implies a contradiction, it states something exists where nothing can logically exist. It is like trying to concieve of a binary lightswitch which is both On and Off at the same time.

Of course, the way to resolve the contradiction is to state God is not bound by logic (which in itself is paradoxial, and I think some Philosophers have stated that it may be contradictory in itself to "not exist within logic"). If that is the case, then God is an empty possibility. It simply means that there is nothing logical or rational which can be said to support (nor deny) belief or disbelief in God, and therefore there is not point in further discussion.

[gentlehorse]

If the existence a certain entity is not proven, the default and most reasonable position is that, "the entity does not exist."

Dandy. Please prove that I exist. All this hanging around in the default position is rather tiresome. It's not easy not existing.

[Corvus]

If the existence a certain entity is not proven, the default and most reasonable position is that, "the entity does not exist."

Dandy. Please prove that I exist. All this hanging around in the default position is rather tiresome. It's not easy not existing.

Didn't you just prove that by posting? Otherwise if we had only read about them (singular them, since I don't know your gender), the person named gentlehorse could have been fictional, for all we knew.