Could Jesus be Satan?

[Zzyzx]

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According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

One might cite a bible story about Jesus and Satan being in the same place (atop a high mountain), but there were no known witnesses and there is no such mountain (from which all kingdoms of the Earth can be seen from a single point on a sphere). Thus, Satan could well have made up such a story (and in the role of Jesus, tell followers that it had happened – or have them informed by another source).

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

What would be Satan's motivation to create a Jesus character and play the role of "the son of god"? EGO and a desire to be worshipped.

[melodious]

I'm surprised that no Christian has yet come in and quoted this scripture:

Matt 12:25
He knew what they were thinking and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

It's usually the scripture used to argue that Jesus cannot be Satan, because that would mean Christianity would no longer exist as it would have destroyed itself years ago. They further argue that Satan only wants evil so nobody would be doing good works in his name.

Of course that argument is easily refuted if you consider that maybe Satan only wants us to think Christianiy is good. It may be that the real God is another God and that by following Christianity you might be condemning yourself. I'm sure Muslims would agree on that one.

It's interesting that you say this. This would be similar to the Gnostic view of the demiurge (god of ignorance) which they equate with the creator god. In this sense, Gnostics assert that Christians, Jews, Muslims, and even Pagans worship this god and not the god above the creator, which would be the very source of the divine spinther within humans (i.e. according to this thought, the creator god only fashioned our bodies but not our souls/psyches).

In the spirit of the serpent - M

[rblight]

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According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

One might cite a bible story about Jesus and Satan being in the same place (atop a high mountain), but there were no known witnesses and there is no such mountain (from which all kingdoms of the Earth can be seen from a single point on a sphere). Thus, Satan could well have made up such a story (and in the role of Jesus, tell followers that it had happened – or have them informed by another source).

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

What would be Satan's motivation to create a Jesus character and play the role of "the son of god"? EGO and a desire to be worshipped.

The problem with your argument is that if Satan was Jesus, he wouldn't have acted anything like Jesus. Moreover, he is already characterized as the God of this world so playing Jesus on Halloween serves no great purpose. Finally, there is less evidence for the existence of Satan exists than there is for Jesus.

[C-Nub]

The problem with your argument is that if Satan was Jesus, he wouldn't have acted anything like Jesus.

That's, no offense intended, a little bit weak. Satan is, according to many, the great deceiver. He is a liar of unfathomable cunning and guile, a silver-tongued rogue who can appear to of any nature he so chooses. If Satan wanted to act like a saint, to convince his chroniclers (some four hundred years later.....?) that he was a good man, a miracle working holy-man, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't be up to playing the role. Well, I mean, I have hard time with that once you get past the whole 'hard-time-with-myths-being-true-in-general' aspect of my objection to the whole theory.

Moreover, he is already characterized as the God of this world so playing Jesus on Halloween serves no great purpose.

Who's characterized as the God of this world? Jesus or Satan? Let's say Jesus, because Satan makes no sense. We'll also have to change that to 'Western World' since we don't want to pretend there isn't a giant slice of the global population that says "Allah" instead of "God" when asking for the winning lotto numbers... Or not to die, depending on where in the world they're praying from...

Not that it matters, because we're talking about when the story of Jesus was being established, not right now. If Satan created the messiah concept, or acted it out ahead of plan, leading to Christianity and the Christ-myth in general, then we certainly wouldn't know it. Arguments like 'everyone worships Jesus now!' aren't exactly detrimental to the hypothesis.

Finally, there is less evidence for the existence of Satan exists than there is for Jesus.

I think there's about the same amount of credible evidence. There have been lots of people named Jesus over the years (read a mexican phone book if you doubt me) but nothing to establish any sort of credible messiah story involving one of the Hey-Zeus fellows available. Satan at least shows up in Keanu Reeves movies. That's big budget stuff.

[rblight]

The problem with your argument is that if Satan was Jesus, he wouldn't have acted anything like Jesus.

That's, no offense intended, a little bit weak. Satan is, according to many, the great deceiver. He is a liar of unfathomable cunning and guile, a silver-tongued rogue who can appear to of any nature he so chooses. If Satan wanted to act like a saint, to convince his chroniclers (some four hundred years later.....?) that he was a good man, a miracle working holy-man, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't be up to playing the role. Well, I mean, I have hard time with that once you get past the whole 'hard-time-with-myths-being-true-in-general' aspect of my objection to the whole theory.

Moreover, he is already characterized as the God of this world so playing Jesus on Halloween serves no great purpose.

Who's characterized as the God of this world? Jesus or Satan? Let's say Jesus, because Satan makes no sense. We'll also have to change that to 'Western World' since we don't want to pretend there isn't a giant slice of the global population that says "Allah" instead of "God" when asking for the winning lotto numbers... Or not to die, depending on where in the world they're praying from...

Not that it matters, because we're talking about when the story of Jesus was being established, not right now. If Satan created the messiah concept, or acted it out ahead of plan, leading to Christianity and the Christ-myth in general, then we certainly wouldn't know it. Arguments like 'everyone worships Jesus now!' aren't exactly detrimental to the hypothesis.

Finally, there is less evidence for the existence of Satan exists than there is for Jesus.

I think there's about the same amount of credible evidence. There have been lots of people named Jesus over the years (read a mexican phone book if you doubt me) but nothing to establish any sort of credible messiah story involving one of the Hey-Zeus fellows available. Satan at least shows up in Keanu Reeves movies. That's big budget stuff.

You claim to be an atheist. So i assume that you don't believe in a devil. So what is the point of your argument? Keep in mind that i am referring to evidence for the historical Jesus. Not much evidence for his existence, but there is exactly zero evidence for the devil.

[dgruber]

According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

One might cite a bible story about Jesus and Satan being in the same place (atop a high mountain), but there were no known witnesses and there is no such mountain (from which all kingdoms of the Earth can be seen from a single point on a sphere). Thus, Satan could well have made up such a story (and in the role of Jesus, tell followers that it had happened – or have them informed by another source).

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

What would be Satan's motivation to create a Jesus character and play the role of "the son of god"? EGO and a desire to be worshipped.

This really wouldn't make sense when you look at the whole picture. Why would Satan chose to play the role of Jesus? If there was no Jesus and Satan was simply playing the role, then in reality he would be bringing more people to seek God, because more people would be praying, reading the Bible etc. This is not something he would want.

Jesus also teaches a positive message, which is something that Satan would never support.

Just for a second lets assume you are correct and Satan just played Jesus. What has he accomplished? He has persuaded people to believe in a person that never existed (as people believed) who stands for values that he (Satan) detests?

I hope we can move on from this idea and find a better topic for debate.

Also, there would be no

[OnceConvinced]

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According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

One might cite a bible story about Jesus and Satan being in the same place (atop a high mountain), but there were no known witnesses and there is no such mountain (from which all kingdoms of the Earth can be seen from a single point on a sphere). Thus, Satan could well have made up such a story (and in the role of Jesus, tell followers that it had happened – or have them informed by another source).

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

What would be Satan's motivation to create a Jesus character and play the role of "the son of god"? EGO and a desire to be worshipped.

The problem with your argument is that if Satan was Jesus, he wouldn't have acted anything like Jesus.

My post a couple of posts back addresses this argument.

This really wouldn't make sense when you look at the whole picture.

I think you are only looking at a very narrow view of the big picture. There are other aspects of it you may be overlooking.

Why would Satan chose to play the role of Jesus? If there was no Jesus and Satan was simply playing the role, then in reality he would be bringing more people to seek God, because more people would be praying, reading the Bible etc. This is not something he would want.

Jesus also teaches a positive message, which is something that Satan would never support.

Just for a second lets assume you are correct and Satan just played Jesus. What has he accomplished? He has persuaded people to believe in a person that never existed (as people believed) who stands for values that he (Satan) detests?

But if the one true God is Allah, then Satan has dragged you along to hell by getting you to worship a false God. He has achieved his ultimate goal.

It seems you may not have read my post, but that's ok, I know sometimes people just wanna get in there and post. It's like that with me some times too.

You see if Allah is the one true God then Satan has done a great job of decieving you by leading you to a false God. Allah is going to be furious that you allowed yourself to be decieved. Likewise, if the one true God is another God, that God is also going to unleash his wrath on your for worshipping Jesus.

Can you see that if Satan wants someone to follow a false religion and thus doom themselves to Hell, then by pretending to be a great guy like Jesus, he's going to accomplish that task.

[Zzyzx]

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This really wouldn't make sense when you look at the whole picture. Why would Satan chose to play the role of Jesus?

A very cleaver and devious "Satan" could have inspired "disciples" to create an evil religion that leads AWAY from "god". The Jesus character could be a total sham created for the purpose of leading gullible people to worship a fake / imposter. If so, that would be a great accomplishment for "Satan".

No one knows anything about the Christian "god" other than what is written in religious promotional literature (which could well have been produced by or influenced by "Satan") or by reported "visions" or "visitations" which could also be easily arranged by a supernatural being.

The claim of "three gods in one" may have been an invention to distract people from a "true" god. The bible is obviously NOT "the inerrant word of god" as some have been led to believe (perhaps by Satan). The claimed "inspiration" behind the bible could have been malevolent just as well as it could have been benevolent.

Another goal of "Satan as Jesus" might well have been to cause divisiveness, conflict and warfare that has involved religious competition for thousands of years. ALL competing religions and their favorite "gods" could well be the product of a supernatural "evil" spirit or being misleading humans and causing them to fight with one another over whose god is best.

The point is NOT that I can show that Satan posed as Jesus – but that no one can be certain that "he" did not. The BEST that anyone can do is to cite "scriptures" (that could have been inspired by Satan) and to quote opinions (which could also be influenced if Satan is supernatural).

Do I think that Satan = Jesus. Heck no. I have no reason to think that either of those characters are supernatural beings or that they exist in anything other than imagination. However, those who do regard them as "real" cannot demonstrate that they can distinguish between the two assuming that Satan is fiendishly cleaver and supernatural (and "the great deceiver).

[TMMaria]

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According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

.

What is the main difference between Jesus and Satan...and for that matters, Jesus and the anti-Christ....? To know the answer, you have to answer for yourself one very important question: considering the moral decay of this world and its acceleration toward chaos, consider the wars, the divisions amongst humanity, the violence, the pain, the suffering...could Jesus's prescription for healing this world: the highest level of Sacrificial Love be an answer. Is LOVE the answer to this world of ours?....if everyone take His prescriptions: to love one another, to be there for the least of your brothers and sisters, to be peacemakers.....if all of us look at each other us part of the Same Body...imagine a beautiful world we can grow and build together.

I find LOVE is indeed a beautiful solution for our world; it end wars, stop violence remove divisions heal the pain and suffering....LOVE is so powerful it even conquers death. LOVE is something that we all need more and more....IF you know LOVE, you know Christ.


Satan on the other hand, advocate taking powers and inspire Adam and Eve with self-glorification: "you'd be like god" and they took the bite. If individuals seek self-glorification above the human family...that's where we see more evil....


SO know the difference between Jesus's message to us: "LOve one another because we are all ONE BODY in Christ."

vs that of Satan's: "Go ahead and eat the fruits of the forbidden tree...you'll be like god."

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Satan is fiendishly cleaver

As in sex–mad (interpreting ‘cleave’ as ‘to have sex with’, as in a man shall ‘cleave unto his wife’)?

[Zzyzx]

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What is the main difference between Jesus and Satan...and for that matters, Jesus and the anti-Christ....? To know the answer, you have to answer for yourself one very important question: considering the moral decay of this world and its acceleration toward chaos, consider the wars, the divisions amongst humanity, the violence, the pain, the suffering...could Jesus's prescription for healing this world: the highest level of Sacrificial Love be an answer.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make; however, whatever that may be, it seems as though Satan is winning over Jesus. As you say wars, divisiveness, violence, pain, suffering are common – and "god" dose nothing to prevent them (and if anything, encourages them). Where is Jesus when you need him? Wasn't he supposed to come to Earth to "save" mankind?

Instead of love (the Jesus way according to some) there are (as you say) wars, divisiveness, violence, pain, suffering (Satan's way). Satan 1, Gods 0

Is LOVE the answer to this world of ours?....if everyone take His prescriptions: to love one another, to be there for the least of your brothers and sisters, to be peacemakers.....if all of us look at each other us part of the Same Body...imagine a beautiful world we can grow and build together.

This is very idealistic. Do you think that it is human nature to love all other humans and to treat them well? Isn't it fairly natural for humans to compete with others to gain advantage? Do you actually think that is going to change?

find LOVE is indeed a beautiful solution for our world; it end wars, stop violence remove divisions heal the pain and suffering....LOVE is so powerful it even conquers death. LOVE is something that we all need more and more....IF you know LOVE, you know Christ.

Are you aware of any society in which this is true? If not what makes you so sure that it would "end wars, stop violence, remove divisions and heal pain and suffering"? Are you guessing?

Satan on the other hand, advocate taking powers and inspire Adam and Eve with self-glorification: "you'd be like god" and they took the bite. If individuals seek self-glorification above the human family...that's where we see more evil....

Again, it looks as though Satan has won the battle for the "hearts and souls" of mankind and that Jesus has come in second best.

SO know the difference between Jesus's message to us: "LOve one another because we are all ONE BODY in Christ."

Let's do Allah instead and all be together and love one another – Okay? I don't think your god is the best god. Let's try a different one and be unified and loving.

vs that of Satan's: "Go ahead and eat the fruits of the forbidden tree...you'll be like god."

Do you think that a deceptive and supernatural Satan would actually use such an obvious "line"? Don't you credit "him" with being smarter than that – smarter and more capable than humans? After all, "he" is reported to be supernatural, isn't "he"?