Assassinations: Good or Evil?

[achilles12604]

Most people would say that killing is wrong. However this statement is usually assumed to be the killing of random, or innocent persons. I want to look at this in a different light.

If we had been able to assassinate Hitler AFTER we knew he was committing genocide, but before he had killed so many, would it have been wrong? Would it have been a sin?

What about a smaller scale? If we know that someone is continually raping children but he has a great lawyer and is never convicted, is it wrong to quietly kill him off before he strikes again?

[achilles12604]

No one can ever convince me that prison is a punishment.

I'm not quite sure that I can agree with that blanket statement. For a person who values freedom, the restrictions that prison represents is punishing. But I will agree that prison is not always a punishment and that the evidence of its effectiveness at reducing or deterring crime is not there.

Prison and jail are two different things. Jail can be a punishment because many of the people who spend time in jail, are usually decent folk who are used to (and therefore VALUE) their freedoms.

However by the time someone makes it to prison, they are generally so used to being in jail or prison, they are already instutionalized. Thus, prisons are generally not a punishment. Also, jails are regularly "harder" to deal with than prisons. Prisons you are allowed contact visits with family, you have a TV in your apartment, and you have access to many joys of regular life (ie gyms, pools, etc). Jails are usually non-contact, much more secure and "locked down" facilities.

[JoeyKnothead]

Been enjoying the dialog. Here's my inflation adjusted two cents...

The Gwinnett County Jail in Lawrenceville Ga was forced by a human rights group to feed its inmates above the starving level. Last time I went through, it was housing 3 men to a cell, with one sleeping in a 'canoe' on the floor. (I would claim I cuss folks in my sleep, so I usually got a single cell). All inmates are in 'lock down' 23 hours a day, and it is sure no picnic. The only TV is thirty minutes in the evening, and only for those 5 or 6 on cleanup detail. Of course the TV is situated so there is no viewing by others.
The Maricopa County Jail in Arkansas is infamous for its treatment of inmates. So even if it ain't prison, it for sure ain't no country club.
Of course, don't do the crime if you can't do the time is a good policy.

A'ight then, y'all carry on.

[McCulloch]

Prison and jail are two different things.

I did not know that. Being a layman in these matters, I had always used the two terms interchangeably.

pris-on [priz-uhn]

1. "noun
2. a building for the confinement of persons held while awaiting trial, persons sentenced after conviction, etc.
3. any place of confinement or involuntary restraint.

jail [jeyl]

1. "noun
2. a prison, esp. one for the detention of persons awaiting trial or convicted of minor offenses.

I think that what you call prison, we call penitentiary, a prison for long term incarceration.

Yes, the USA has shown the world how its prisons are really only country clubs with guards in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

[achilles12604]

Yes, the USA has shown the world how its prisons are really only country clubs with guards in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

Those two are not prisons. They are military detention facilities. Prisons can only be used after a person is convicted of a crime. This is known as "sentenced" status. On the other hand almost ALL of the people in those two facilities are what is known as "pre-trial". Anyone in pre-trial is housed in a jail, not DOC.

ALSO - There are a good number of people in those facilities who have not even been CHARGED with a crime yet.

So using them as examples of "prisons" is highly inaccurate.

But not many people know these facts unless they are part of the system, so I don't fault you for the lack of full understanding.

When I use the term prison, I use it in conjunction with the term penitentiary. I will use this term from now on to avoid further confusion.

[achilles12604]

Been enjoying the dialog. Here's my inflation adjusted two cents...

The Gwinnett County Jail in Lawrenceville Ga was forced by a human rights group to feed its inmates above the starving level. Last time I went through, it was housing 3 men to a cell, with one sleeping in a 'canoe' on the floor. (I would claim I cuss folks in my sleep, so I usually got a single cell). All inmates are in 'lock down' 23 hours a day, and it is sure no picnic. The only TV is thirty minutes in the evening, and only for those 5 or 6 on cleanup detail. Of course the TV is situated so there is no viewing by others.
The Maricopa County Jail in Arkansas is infamous for its treatment of inmates. So even if it ain't prison, it for sure ain't no country club.
Of course, don't do the crime if you can't do the time is a good policy.

A'ight then, y'all carry on.

Of course there is variation between jails based on the overriding concensus of the local populus.

I have never been to the jails you listed so I will assume that you portray them accurately. However, those conditions are hardly universal.

In my jail for example, it is signficantly different.

1) The inmates are fed 3000 calories per day, regulated by an outside contractor working with the state.

2) The vast majority of our cells are 1 person cells. However, cells are only used in Medium and Maximum security anyway. In Minimum there are no cells. There is a huge open bunking area which resembles basic training or military barracks. There is a large open air gym attached to each of the modules. Each "cave" or bunking area has 4 bunk beds (total of 8 people) and it is approximately 30 feet, by 40 feet by 15 feet in size.

3) In maximum security the inmates are locked down for 16 hours per day. IN MAX. In minimum they are locked down for 7 hours per day. (basically at night) The rest of the time they are free to do whatever they want.

4) The TV's are on 24 hours per day. Every day. Without exception.



So while some jails may be what you described, I would suggest that they are limited to either older jail facilities, or over crowded facilities in large metropolitan areas. Either way, all the jails in my area (about 10 counties that I have seen), are like the one I work at and thus, my opinion is that jail is cake.

As for the pens, If an inmate is complaining about the treatment they have here and are begging to be returned to the Pen, and they are treated as I described above, what can we infer about the majority of State pens? Answer: That they are even more cushy than this place . . . and this makes me sick.

[JoeyKnothead]

My reply above was only to show that not all jails could be considered 'soft'. My experience was in the late 80's/early 90s. Often I would hear inmates hope for State or Federal time, knowing it would be easier.
The Gwinnett County Jail is still pretty much as described.
I have no doubt there are many, maybe even most jails that are 'soft'.

[achilles12604]

My reply above was only to show that not all jails could be considered 'soft'. My experience was in the late 80's/early 90s. Often I would hear inmates hope for State or Federal time, knowing it would be easier.
The Gwinnett County Jail is still pretty much as described.
I have no doubt there are many, maybe even most jails that are 'soft'.

Fair enough.

So what would you consider an effective deterrent regarding crimes? Rape? Murder? or Genocide? Any ideas because I am stumped.

[JoeyKnothead]

As long as humans exist, there will never be a perfect deterrent. There's some that just can't seem to follow the laws in every place ya go. Harsher sentences usually just create harsher criminals. I'm not saying we should be soft on crime, just that some don't think about the consequences before they act.
After my last stint I went to therapy at the VA, it did me a world of good, but essentially I'm still the same. I was told I have 'anti-social personality disorder'. Like at a bar, I'm a moron magnet. My sense of humor is pretty cynical, and it comes out when I'm talking to folks. Sure enough some idiot overhears me, takes my words the wrong way, and its the crossbar hotel for both of us. I won't back down from a fight, but I sure can't seem to ever win em either. Course I'm mellowing in my older age, I ain't been in trouble for five or six years, a record for me I'm trying to maintain.

[achilles12604]

As long as humans exist, there will never be a perfect deterrent. There's some that just can't seem to follow the laws in every place ya go. Harsher sentences usually just create harsher criminals. I'm not saying we should be soft on crime, just that some don't think about the consequences before they act.
After my last stint I went to therapy at the VA, it did me a world of good, but essentially I'm still the same. I was told I have 'anti-social personality disorder'. Like at a bar, I'm a moron magnet. My sense of humor is pretty cynical, and it comes out when I'm talking to folks. Sure enough some idiot overhears me, takes my words the wrong way, and its the crossbar hotel for both of us. I won't back down from a fight, but I sure can't seem to ever win em either. Course I'm mellowing in my older age, I ain't been in trouble for five or six years, a record for me I'm trying to maintain.

Isn't it funny. I was told I had an anti-social personality disorder. And I also have a cold sense of humor. I guess people like us become one of three things.

1) "Crooks"
2) Cops
3) Both

[Jura]

ok just one thing on genocide that seems to be unclear from some of the earlier posts
when it is going to happen you KNOW it is going to happen
there is no maybe
it takes months upon months of preparations
plans have to be made, statistics worked out, media coverage organised, infrastructure set up, large machinery such as bulldozers and trenchdiggers have to be aquired, busses, trains and trucks organised, pits and diches dug up, weapons and equipment distributed, humans enlisted, but most importantly a intense and well planed campaing of hatred and fear must be imposed on peoples minds constantly ower a long period of time, so as to make them capable of murdering or knowingly aloving the murder of large numbers of their neighbours, friends and often family

in other words you can definitley know when a genocide is comming, and ewery single secret police, inteligence organisation, humanitarian organisation, news company, ewery major gowerment in the world knows it, well before it happens

there are alvais numerous moments in wich these things can be stopped, just put a bomb in the right coffe shop or under the right car at the right moment, or simply apply political preassure and back it with a missile or two
but the thing is mostly no one gives half a piss about it so ewribody lets it happen, and then move in to attempt clumsily to fix things, when it gets so ugly they stand to lose face if they do nothing
then it is customary to send "peace corps" that do literarly nothing and often make things worse, or alternatively bomb peole who have little to do with it and cause exesive damage to show they are trying

i just felt this had to be cleared, as this is one example where it is POSITIVELY CLEAR what is about to happen MONTHS before, and lack of action merely shows lack of interest