What do Atheists Believe?

[Skyler]

If there's one thing I've heard about atheists, it's that they do not believe in the existence of a God.

So then, what do you believe?

It's been my experience that there is little or no value in engaging in a debate with someone who has no position on the subject. So, please, share your positions.

[Goat]

I mean heck, what are you looking for? Just because I don't believe in this god creature of yours implies I don't have any beliefs of any kind? How strange.

Do you believe that it is wrong to hurt others for your own gain?
I know you do so let's go to the next step, how do you justify such a belief?
For example, is it wrong for a lion to kill a deer for lunch? If we are just animals in pants why would it be wrong for me to take your 52" plasma and sell it for my lunch?
Without a god there is no absolute moral standard.

Very simply.. Man is a social animal. We also have the instinct to protect ourselves.

Now, there is this social contract. If you disobey the social contract (no stealing).. then society has given itself the right to punish you. Do you want to risk the consequences?

[Cmass]

I mean heck, what are you looking for? Just because I don't believe in this god creature of yours implies I don't have any beliefs of any kind? How strange.

Do you believe that it is wrong to hurt others for your own gain?
I know you do so let's go to the next step, how do you justify such a belief?
For example, is it wrong for a lion to kill a deer for lunch? If we are just animals in pants why would it be wrong for me to take your 52" plasma and sell it for my lunch?
Without a god there is no absolute moral standard.

Turnabout: If you were not Christian, would you hurt someone for your own gain? If so, then I am more moral than you because I don't need a threat from a god creature to keep me in line. My morality is built-in. (There are many threads on the development of morality within human and other animal cultures and why it is crucial for survival.)

[realthinker]

I mean heck, what are you looking for? Just because I don't believe in this god creature of yours implies I don't have any beliefs of any kind? How strange.

Do you believe that it is wrong to hurt others for your own gain?

This is such a weak question. What do you mean by hurt? Did you interview for a job? If you got it an someone didn't, did you hurt that person who spent the next weeks still unemployed and lost his house or car? You bought the last loaf of bread in the store and someone else's kids went hungry, an event that lead to years of distrust for those kids that kept them from being successful adults. How far are you willing to go down that path to discover what hurts and what doesn't.

I know you do so let's go to the next step, how do you justify such a belief?
For example, is it wrong for a lion to kill a deer for lunch? If we are just animals in pants why would it be wrong for me to take your 52" plasma and sell it for my lunch?
Without a god there is no absolute moral standard.

Morality is the social compulsion to accept limited immediate personal gain in return for the opportunity to benefit from other's limited personal gain in the future. I don't kill you or steal your television because if I did that I wouldn't be accepted as part of a society that provides me and my offspring with increased chance of survival.

Within a population, as the likelihood of living to maturity and producing offspring increases, morality becomes more sophisticated. If it's unlikely I'll live to 30 and keep any offspring, I'll take more chances at others' expense. If all I have to do is limit my ambition and take advantage of social cooperation in order to produce offspring, I'm far less likely to take advantage. The advantage is to those whose morality is sophisticated enough to compel compliance but is not so strict as to remove the social advantage for the individual.

[olavisjo]

Turnabout: If you were not Christian, would you hurt someone for your own gain? If so, then I am more moral than you because I don't need a threat from a god creature to keep me in line. My morality is built-in. (There are many threads on the development of morality within human and other animal cultures and why it is crucial for survival.)

I have no doubt that you are more moral than I am, but you still have no basis for your morality. When the ship is sinking and there is only room for women and children in the lifeboat why stick to your built-in morality? You have a gun and they don't, so you can use it to make room in the lifeboat and enhance your survival.

Morality is the social compulsion to accept limited immediate personal gain in return for the opportunity to benefit from other's limited personal gain in the future.

That is a good definition, but it does not say I should be moral only that I am more likely to benefit from cooperation.

Now, there is this social contract. If you disobey the social contract (no stealing).. then society has given itself the right to punish you. Do you want to risk the consequences?

We all do take that risk on a daily basis. When we are late, we push the gas pedal a little harder, all the way up to murder if necessary, which is a very common occurrence these days.

This is just it. For many (usually atheists), there is no moral absolute. There is no justifying a belief that something is 'right' objectively. We've decided amongst ourselves what is to be 'right' and 'wrong' based on what is convenient for us.

That is the honest answer, however I don't for a second think that you believe that.
If morality was simply what is convenient then you would never be able to call someone bad or evil, they are only inconvenient. I would not be evil if I kill and eat homeless people who would never be missed, you would not be evil if you kill and eat cows and pigs. You would not be evil if you fail to return a library book.
We all know that morality is real, we do not make it up, we discover it the same way we discover mathematical truths only easier. Even children figure it out. All you have to do is ask "how would you like it if someone did that to you?"

For example, it is usually considered 'wrong' to kill someone for the fun of it. But if someone has a ticking noise coming from under their padded jacket and is sauntering towards a crowded market, there might be a general consensus that killing him before he can press the button would be a 'good' thing to do.

You just killed the clock salesman, who was delivering an antique clock to his client at the market. But no loss, he was not well liked anyway.

[Cmass]

Realthinker wrote:

Morality is the social compulsion to accept limited immediate personal gain in return for the opportunity to benefit from other's limited personal gain in the future. I don't kill you or steal your television because if I did that I wouldn't be accepted as part of a society that provides me and my offspring with increased chance of survival.

This is actually a pretty good explanation.

I would add that another critical piece of social fabric is the ability for people to empathize. That is the "do unto others" etc... part in the bible. The thing is, you don't need to read it in the bible or be threatened with eternal torture to have empathy. Or feel guilt. Or even give your life up for another person.

[Cmass]

I have no doubt that you are more moral than I am, but you still have no basis for your morality.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If I am moral, obviously I "have a basis for it" and as an Atheist you can be sure it was not the bible.

When the ship is sinking and there is only room for women and children in the lifeboat why stick to your built-in morality? You have a gun and they don't, so you can use it to make room in the lifeboat and enhance your survival.

If you were not threatened by the bible and your god creature fantasy, would YOU use the gun?
I hate to break it to you, but Christians are NOT the only altruistic beings on this planet.

We all do take that risk on a daily basis. When we are late, we push the gas pedal a little harder, all the way up to murder if necessary, which is a very common occurrence these days.

So, without the bible you would be more likely to commit vehicular homicide? If that is the case then there should be an extra line on drivers licenses of Christians just like there is for people who have prescription glasses: "Must have bible in vehicle at all times."

If morality was simply what is convenient then you would never be able to call someone bad or evil, they are only inconvenient.

Who in here stated that morality is "what is convenient"? Indeed empathy, morality, guilt et... all that stuff is most certainly NOT convenient - especially if you chose thievery as a career path. It causes you to feel bad if you do something wrong. Not convenient. If I wanted to be a nasty thief and a power hungry SOB, I should instead take notes from any number of Christians. For example, pastor Haggie is NOT moral or ethical. He is a manipulative tyrant multi-millionaire who fleeces his flock for millions and advocates war and world domination by Christians. I don't think it is possible for him to be truly empathetic toward other human beings and do what he is doing. Clearly the bible is not helping him or the millions he afflicts.

I would not be evil if I kill and eat homeless people who would never be missed, you would not be evil if you kill and eat cows and pigs. You would not be evil if you fail to return a library book.

Once again, you need the bible or god to tell you eating homeless people is bad? Dude, you are starting to scare me.

You just killed the clock salesman, who was delivering an antique clock to his client at the market. But no loss, he was not well liked anyway.

No, the antique clock salesman was killed last week by some Christians who heard the sound and thought he was possessed by the devil.

You need to provide some evidence that myself and other Atheists are incapable of empathy, altruism, feeling guilty, knowing the difference between good and bad etc...etc... due to our lack of belief your god creature fantasy.
Thus far you have made some outrageous claims. According to you, without the threats provided by the bible, society would collapse and we would end up committing vehicular homicide and eating homeless people. Where is your evidence of that? Are there more Atheists in attendance at the homeless person eating contests? Do police reports show more Atheist murders? Do you really need me to provide you the endless list of Christians who use the bible as the very foundation of their evil acts?

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

According to you, without the threats provided by the bible, society would collapse and we would end up committing vehicular homicide and eating homeless people.

I simply cannot stop laughing at this! It sounds so outrageous and Monty Pythonesque when you put it like that, but olavisjo’s arguments DO pretty much amount to this!

[realthinker]

Morality is the social compulsion to accept limited immediate personal gain in return for the opportunity to benefit from other's limited personal gain in the future.

That is a good definition, but it does not say I should be moral only that I am more likely to benefit from cooperation.

It doesn't say that you should, only that those who are moral are going to gain the advantage of being part of the social unit. You have to make the decision about what's better for you. Some don't feel the compulsion and are incarcerated, banished, killed, etc. They don't get to be part of society. Over generations, those with the stronger social ties and moral compulsion will prosper.

What's funny is that religion, with its oppressive moral coercion based on arbitrary beliefs and unsubstantiated consequences, serves to promote the evolution of Man and society. It's the mechanism for promoting morality, not the source of it.

Morals are what works for society. Those religions that happen to promote the most effective morals are those that have prospered and survived the evolution of our society. It's not the religion, it's the morals they promote. The stories are immaterial. It's the behavior that they inspire that are the key.

I think it just happens that those stories with arbitrary, unprovable deities and unsubstantiated consequences are more consistent over time and have proven to be effective. If the effects are positive, what's the different between being true and being unprovable? If it's impossible to prove right or wrong and it's helping Mankind along, who cares if it's not really true?

[JoeyKnothead]

I have no doubt that you are more moral than I am, but you still have no basis for your morality. When the ship is sinking and there is only room for women and children in the lifeboat why stick to your built-in morality? You have a gun and they don't, so you can use it to make room in the lifeboat and enhance your survival.

My moral code is built on my empathy for my fellow man, and the planet as a whole. I would point you to the following thread:
Is Religion or God The Basis of Morals 2nd Edition?
I see some theists make these claims and when asked to back them up they tend to try to steer the topic away. Please show us where you have the authority to make your claim.

This whole notion of people not having morals outside of religion has been placed in some theists minds as a way to make them think their beliefs are superior to all others. It is a demeaning of nonbelievers that is wrong at best, and slanderous at worst. Please show where your religion provides you with superior morals.

I find it interesting it took a theist to create such a gross scenario as you have put forth in order to support a superior moral stance for religion.

[bernee51]

Turnabout: If you were not Christian, would you hurt someone for your own gain? If so, then I am more moral than you because I don't need a threat from a god creature to keep me in line. My morality is built-in. (There are many threads on the development of morality within human and other animal cultures and why it is crucial for survival.)

I have no doubt that you are more moral than I am, but you still have no basis for your morality. When the ship is sinking and there is only room for women and children in the lifeboat why stick to your built-in morality? You have a gun and they don't, so you can use it to make room in the lifeboat and enhance your survival.

'My' survival is not required for the species to survive - we are vehicles for gene survival.

Survival of the individual requires egosim - survival of community requires altruism. Our genes ensure community.