Baptising a Child

Sultan85 · Post by **Sultan85** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:34 pm

Most people baptise their children at a very young age. By doing this, aren't you deciding what your child should believe in, instead of leaving it to be his or her choice?
When children are so young, their brain is not developed to tackle such hard issues, that we as adults cannot even come to agreement with. When you sell this story to children, they will easily believe in it (which could be a possible explanation to why anyone is religious at all). When doing this, you are by definition, indoctrinating a defenseless child; which I would argue is psychological abuse.

Question: Are Baptising and teaching religious doctrine to children morally wrong? On that grounds that it interferes with his freedom to choose.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:50 pm

Thought Criminal wrote:
goat wrote: Baptism is only a ritual that makes the participants feel warm and fuzzy. The Baptism of a child is not for the child's sake, it is for the parents sake.

Rituals are important to the participants. All else is irrelevant.
Except that, as part of the ritual, the child is now considered Christian.

TC

The parents consider that child so.

When that child grows up, and has their own thoughts, that might or might not be the case.

Thought Criminal · Post by **Thought Criminal** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:47 am

goat wrote: The parents consider that child so.

Indeed, but the parent is wrong to do so, and is failing to do their job if they try to force their child to live up to this error.

When that child grows up, and has their own thoughts, that might or might not be the case.

Regardless, it is not the case at the time the statement is made.

TC

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:58 am

Thought Criminal wrote:
goat wrote: The parents consider that child so.
Indeed, but the parent is wrong to do so, and is failing to do their job if they try to force their child to live up to this error.

When that child grows up, and has their own thoughts, that might or might not be the case.
Regardless, it is not the case at the time the statement is made.

TC

I disagree. Teaching a child values is important, and a parental responsiblity. If part of the value system is religion, then so be it.

Thought Criminal · Post by **Thought Criminal** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:16 am

goat wrote:I disagree. Teaching a child values is important, and a parental responsiblity. If part of the value system is religion, then so be it.

Socializing a child and giving them the ability to reason morally is vital Indoctrination in religion is simply abuse. Might as well rape their bodies after you're done raping their minds.

TC

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:39 am

Thought Criminal wrote:
goat wrote:I disagree. Teaching a child values is important, and a parental responsiblity. If part of the value system is religion, then so be it.
Socializing a child and giving them the ability to reason morally is vital Indoctrination in religion is simply abuse. Might as well rape their bodies after you're done raping their minds.

TC

That comment, although very emotional, is not very productive. Yes, I know you disapprove of religion very much, but I happen to disagree with your extreme prejudice.

Thought Criminal · Post by **Thought Criminal** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:46 am

goat wrote: That comment, although very emotional, is not very productive. Yes, I know you disapprove of religion very much, but I happen to disagree with your extreme prejudice.

I disapprove of childhood indoctrination. It is inherently harmful, and more so when the belief system is false.

TC

Nameless · Post by **Nameless** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:08 am

I see the baptizing of children as a Xtian parent's way of saying that although the bible says that all are born in sin, and baptism is supposed to make some difference to 'salvation', the requirements of baptism require being of age to think and reason. That leaves a window that baby Johnny or Sally is going to Hell, if they die. Ever an uncomfortable concept, to think of one's beautiful sinful baby roasting in Dante's Inferno, baptising the beggar is a bit of (emotionally necessary) insurance.

If a parent sees a car barelling down on the child, they will push the child out of the way, save him. There are those who equally believe that 'baptism' is essential to their child's 'salvation'. It is their moral duty to what they see as 'truth' and 'reality', to 'push' the baby out of the 'spiritual' road. The baptism isn't indoctrination, in and of itself. I can understand them doing it. They have no 'choice'.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:17 am

Thought Criminal wrote:
goat wrote: That comment, although very emotional, is not very productive. Yes, I know you disapprove of religion very much, but I happen to disagree with your extreme prejudice.
I disapprove of childhood indoctrination. It is inherently harmful, and more so when the belief system is false.

TC

All the information a child gets in their formative years is 'indoctrination'. Yes, you disagree with the belief system.. but your emotional language is nothing better than the 'pro-life' people screaming that abortion is murder, and calling people who have had abortions (even for strong medical reasons) 'baby-killers'.

You have yet to show that all religious belief is 'inherently harmful', and you also have not shown that any belief system is 'true', or even 'false' for that matter. It is a matter of opinion and prejudice.

Thought Criminal · Post by **Thought Criminal** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:36 am

goat wrote:All the information a child gets in their formative years is 'indoctrination'. Yes, you disagree with the belief system.. but your emotional language is nothing better than the 'pro-life' people screaming that abortion is murder, and calling people who have had abortions (even for strong medical reasons) 'baby-killers'.

You have yet to show that all religious belief is 'inherently harmful', and you also have not shown that any belief system is 'true', or even 'false' for that matter. It is a matter of opinion and prejudice.

No, education is not indoctrination. To indoctrinate is "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."

To indoctrinate is to instill a partisan or biased view rather than to educate objectively. This is inherently harmful because bias is an error.

TC

Thought Criminal · Post by **Thought Criminal** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:38 am

Nameless wrote:I see the baptizing of children as a Xtian parent's way of saying that although the bible says that all are born in sin, and baptism is supposed to make some difference to 'salvation', the requirements of baptism require being of age to think and reason. That leaves a window that baby Johnny or Sally is going to Hell, if they die. Ever an uncomfortable concept, to think of one's beautiful sinful baby roasting in Dante's Inferno, baptising the beggar is a bit of (emotionally necessary) insurance.

If a parent sees a car barelling down on the child, they will push the child out of the way, save him. There are those who equally believe that 'baptism' is essential to their child's 'salvation'. It is their moral duty to what they see as 'truth' and 'reality', to 'push' the baby out of the 'spiritual' road. The baptism isn't indoctrination, in and of itself. I can understand them doing it. They have no 'choice'.

You're explaining their thinking but in no way justifying it. If I believe the only way to save my daughter is to remove her clitoris with a piece of broken glass, then that explains why I mutilated her, but it justifies nothing.

TC