Free will

stevencarrwork · Post by **stevencarrwork** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:54 pm

Do cats and dogs love their owners,and are devoted to their owners, of their own free will?

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:02 pm

Do cats and dogs love their owners,and are devoted to their owners, of their own free will?

No. You'll find that what you perceive to be love, is more so the result of extremely effective conditioning then any actual choice the animal had a say in.

stevencarrwork · Post by **stevencarrwork** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:08 pm

It is surprising how many people enjoy the purely conditioned love of a cat or dog, never once minding that it is not based on any free will choice to love or show devotion.

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:57 pm

It is surprising how many people enjoy the purely conditioned love of a cat or dog, never once minding that it is not based on any free will choice to love or show devotion.

Not really. To a child, their favorite stuffed animal/doll loves them as much as they love it. Many people love cars, many people will spend good amounts of time thinking of the deceased, whom they feel love for despite their inability to return it. It's simply part of how things work.

stevencarrwork · Post by **stevencarrwork** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:51 pm

Children do indeed think that their stuffed animals love them.

But they are under a delusion surely, if they believe that their Winnie the Pooh is as devoted to them as their pet dog is

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:34 pm

But your dog doesn't love you. That's pure anthropomorphizing. Your dog has learned to play you like a violin (mine too, btw). Dogs depend on us for survival as a species. We are their eco-system. In the wild, they would be have to become like wolves or they would just die out. So next time Fido licks your hand for a dog treat, do indulge him if you feel inclined to, but remember it's just an evolutionary adaptation.

stevencarrwork · Post by **stevencarrwork** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:06 am

You might be right, but why are so many people so pleased with the companionship and devotion that their pets show to them, knowing that none of it is real?

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:31 am

You might be right, but why are so many people so pleased with the companionship and devotion that their pets show to them, knowing that none of it is real?

Why do people enjoy movies despite the fact they know the movie isn't real?

Willful suspension of belief happens in the movie, and with pets.

stevencarrwork · Post by **stevencarrwork** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:12 am

Do you really think the companinship between a blind man and hs guide dog, is the same sort of thing as the interest a viewer of a film has in the characters depicted (many of them real people ,of course)

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:59 am

We benefit from our relationship with dogs too, although for us is not as crucial. Dogs couldn't live without us, but we can live without dogs. Because dogs are useful to us, we humans (who tend to view everything through an anthoropomorphizing lens) interpret it as love, although if we stopped to think about it we would realize it's something else.