Does God teach discrimination?

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:02 am

Why would Chrsitians disobey Caesar's laws that say not to discriminate? Does God teach discrimination? Yes.

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Jose · Post by **Jose** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:48 pm

Shamgar wrote:
Jose wrote:
micatala wrote:Even if we assume that homosexuality is against God's will...
Why should we assume this? Homosexuality is determined by the developmental processes that occur during embryogenesis, under the influence of genes and hormones. If people are born this way, and if human development is under the guidance of God (as some say), or even if humans were designed by God so that biological mechanisms beyond anyone's control can result in homosexuality, then it seems that it is God's will that certain people be homosexual. It is God's will that some people have blue eyes, and that some people have congenital abnormalities that we can see. Does God tell us to discriminate against them? If not, why not? It's the same thing: God's will about how people are born.
There is no assumption. It is clearly stated that God discriminated AGAINST Esau before he was born.

Romans 9: for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, (1) The elder shall serve the younger. (1) Ge 25:23) 13 Even as it is written, (1) Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. (1) Mal 1:2 f)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, (1) I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. (1) Ex 33:19) 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, (1) For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. (1) Ex 9:16) 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22 What if God, (1) willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: (1) Or although willing ) 23 (1) and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

It looks like an assumption to me. Your quote is completely meaningless to me, being entirely metaphorical, and speaking not at all to the issue of how God directs embryogenesis, or why he would tell people to be rude to other people whom he created. Rather than throw bible quotes at me, please tell me in normal English. There is no way that I will be able to tell, just from a quote, what your personal intepretation is.

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:31 pm

micatala wrote:
OK. Here are the verses I have supposedly ripped out of the Bible, according to your opinion.

No according to the confession from your mouth. Glue them back in where they belong.

No, according to your opinion. I have them firmly glued in place. I have given my interpretation, and at this point you have given me no reason not to stand behind it.

There is no assumption. It is clearly stated that God discriminated AGAINST Esau before he was born.

Once again, even if you accept that this 'discrimination' of Esau is comparable to what you are talking about with homosexuals, it is God who is doing it, and not man. As I have been saying all along, the Bible does not give men the same authority to judge as He reserves for himself. Perhaps you could indicate how you would make this distinction or if you do. It seems to me you are still misinterpreting many of these 'judgment' passages. You seem to be saying that you have the same authority to judge as God. This is one of my main disagreements with your position.

micatala wrote:
Even if we assume that homosexuality is against God's will...

Jose said:
Why should we assume this? Homosexuality is determined by the developmental processes that occur during embryogenesis, under the influence of genes and hormones. If people are born this way, and if human development is under the guidance of God (as some say), or even if humans were designed by God so that biological mechanisms beyond anyone's control can result in homosexuality, then it seems that it is God's will that certain people be homosexual. It is God's will that some people have blue eyes, and that some people have congenital abnormalities that we can see. Does God tell us to discriminate against them? If not, why not? It's the same thing: God's will about how people are born.

This is a valid point. My 'even if' was rhetorical. I don't agree with Shamgar's point, even if he is correct that homosexuality is a sin. They are separate questions in my mind. 1) Is homosexuality a sin? 2) If it is, how should we deal with it from a legal standpoint.

Shamgar does have scripture to back him up on 1, although I think especially the New Testament verses may have translation problems. If you accept his interpretation of scripture, then you would consider homosexuality as a sin.

My point is that, even if you accept his view that homosexuality is a sin, this does not determine the answer to question 2, even if you accept a fairly literal interpretation of scripture.

Obviously, part of the underlying point I am trying to make is that overly literal interpretations of the Bible are problematic. As Jose notes, just quoting a particular passage does not always indicate how it should be applied in a particular circumstance.

. . . and so I ask again, on what basis would we as a society decide which Biblical injunctions should be ensconced in law, and which not?

. . . and again, is slavery evil? Should it be legal, given that it is sanctioned as such in the Bible?

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:01 pm

Jose wrote:It looks like an assumption to me.

No, it is your assumption. my stating a fact.

Your quote is completely meaningless to me, being entirely metaphorical, and speaking not at all to the issue of how God directs embryogenesis, or why he would tell people to be rude to other people whom he created. Rather than throw bible quotes at me, please tell me in normal English. There is no way that I will be able to tell, just from a quote, what your personal intepretation is.

It must be either the power of God clouding you mind or your sluggardly nature which prevents you from reading the paragraph, since the answer is in the paragraph.

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:08 pm

micatala wrote:This is a valid point. My 'even if' was rhetorical. I don't agree with Shamgar's point, even if he is correct that homosexuality is a sin. They are separate questions in my mind. 1) Is homosexuality a sin? 2) If it is, how should we deal with it from a legal standpoint.

See that is your problem . . . the unstablitity of your mind when it comes to Scripture.

James 1: 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Shamgar does have scripture to back him up on 1, although I think especially the New Testament verses may have translation problems. If you accept his interpretation of scripture, then you would consider homosexuality as a sin.

My point is that, even if you accept his view that homosexuality is a sin, this does not determine the answer to question 2, even if you accept a fairly literal interpretation of scripture.

Well here is a second witness the homosexuals will not enter the kingdom:

Romans 1: 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:51 pm

. . . and so I ask again, on what basis would we as a society decide which Biblical injunctions should be ensconced in law, and which not?

. . . and again, is slavery evil? Should it be legal, given that it is sanctioned as such in the Bible?

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:30 am

micatala wrote:
. . . and so I ask again, on what basis would we as a society decide which Biblical injunctions should be ensconced in law, and which not?

. . . and again, is slavery evil? Should it be legal, given that it is sanctioned as such in the Bible?

Let's try to stay "On Point", shall we?

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:41 pm

I think these questions are exactly 'on point.' Why are you avoiding answering them?

The stated title of the thread is 'Does God teach discrimination?' Discrimination can take a number of forms, including legal discrimination by a government against a particular group, or discrimination by individuals or groups of individuals against other individuals or groups.

You have been arguing that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of God and should be discriminated against, at least by individual believers and the church, if not the state. If this is a mischaracterization of your view, I am more than willing to be corrected.

My point is that the arguments you have made and the verses you quote do not support state discrimination against homosexuals. I also do not believe scripture unequivocally counsels believers to discriminate or not associate with homosexuals on an individual basis. Furthermore, my position is that you are being inconsistent in your use of scripture by applying passages only to homosexuals, and not to those displaying the other behaviors in the verses you quote.

. . . . and so I will rephrase the questions slightly.

Should we discriminate against homosexuals and not against drunkards, idolaters, the covetous, the greedy, etc.?

What form should the discrimination take in each case?

If we do not discriminate against all of these equally, on what basis would we do so?

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:34 am

micatala wrote:My point is that the arguments you have made and the verses you quote do not support state discrimination against homosexuals. I also do not believe scripture unequivocally counsels believers to discriminate or not associate with homosexuals on an individual basis. Furthermore, my position is that you are being inconsistent in your use of scripture by applying passages only to homosexuals, and not to those displaying the other behaviors in the verses you quote.

See you haven't proven your point. You want to go down some rabbit trail without proving your "point". Sorry I don't play that game.

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:02 pm

micatala wrote:
My point is that the arguments you have made and the verses you quote do not support state discrimination against homosexuals. I also do not believe scripture unequivocally counsels believers to discriminate or not associate with homosexuals on an individual basis. Furthermore, my position is that you are being inconsistent in your use of scripture by applying passages only to homosexuals, and not to those displaying the other behaviors in the verses you quote.

See you haven't proven your point. You want to go down some rabbit trail without proving your "point". Sorry I don't play that game.

Au Contraire. I have given ample support for the points stated, including scriptural support. You have yet to refute any of the points made. In my view, you have selectively quoted scripture to support your view, but have not responded to other portions of scripture which do not support your view, and even tend to refute it.

Shamgar · Post by **Shamgar** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:54 am

micatala wrote:
micatala wrote:
My point is that the arguments you have made and the verses you quote do not support state discrimination against homosexuals. I also do not believe scripture unequivocally counsels believers to discriminate or not associate with homosexuals on an individual basis. Furthermore, my position is that you are being inconsistent in your use of scripture by applying passages only to homosexuals, and not to those displaying the other behaviors in the verses you quote.

See you haven't proven your point. You want to go down some rabbit trail without proving your "point". Sorry I don't play that game.
Au Contraire. I have given ample support for the points stated, including scriptural support. You have yet to refute any of the points made. In my view, you have selectively quoted scripture to support your view, but have not responded to other portions of scripture which do not support your view, and even tend to refute it.

Well I image this to be spiraling down to my "opposition" wailing "Is not!" repeatedly and in a less than mature way.