Abortion and God's plan for the soul

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jmars
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Abortion and God's plan for the soul

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Post by jmars »

This is another issue I have with the whole, God's plan, free will, unborn fetus/embryo = life and soul, thing.

If god knows a soul before it is ever born and a blastocyst supposedly has a soul at conception and an abortion causes that soul to go to heaven with God, then how do you explain subsequent children who would never have been born without the abortion(s) in the first place. What would have happened to THAT soul that, remember, was known by God before it was ever born and was supposedly meant to be born as well.

I know many will say, well God KNEW that the abortion would take place, but did not stop it, because the subsequent soul needed to be born. In that case, why outlaw abortion, if it is also part of God's plan? And if it is part of his plan what does that say about God, why not leave the soul out of the first child so nothing goes to waste, and put the soul meant for that body, into the body of the child that WILL be born? Seems easy to do. Wait maybe he DOES do that and we just don't know. :shock:

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Re: Abortion and God's plan for the soul

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Post by Goat »

jmars wrote:This is another issue I have with the whole, God's plan, free will, unborn fetus/embryo = life and soul, thing.

If god knows a soul before it is ever born and a blastocyst supposedly has a soul at conception and an abortion causes that soul to go to heaven with God, then how do you explain subsequent children who would never have been born without the abortion(s) in the first place. What would have happened to THAT soul that, remember, was known by God before it was ever born and was supposedly meant to be born as well.

I know many will say, well God KNEW that the abortion would take place, but did not stop it, because the subsequent soul needed to be born. In that case, why outlaw abortion, if it is also part of God's plan? And if it is part of his plan what does that say about God, why not leave the soul out of the first child so nothing goes to waste, and put the soul meant for that body, into the body of the child that WILL be born? Seems easy to do. Wait maybe he DOES do that and we just don't know. :shock:
If you take a look in the bible, there is a procedure to induce a miscarriage as a test for infidelity (an abortion so to speak). While the result is ultimately gods, the choice to attempt to induce a miscarriage means man can get involved in life/death choices. See numbers 5.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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jmars
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Post by jmars »

That's all fine, but I was referring to the many xians who ignore that and support their anti-abortion stance with the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment. They have decided that the verse that says, "I knew the hairs on you head..." as evidence that the soul exists, or is at least planned by God, before it is even concieved. Based on what I said, I feel this would be a contradiction. I'm more trying to figure out the whole soul - embryo thing and free will verses devine plan thing as it relates to abortion; not the legality of abortion perse. I was just adding that my theory makes abortion seem a "necessary evil" so that other souls can be born in accordance to "God's plan".

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Post by Baphomet »

In my opinion, the soul originates as soon as the brain develops. Why? Because things that do not have a brain simply exist to eat, sleep, and produce urine and excrement. A basic machine of life, but nothing that can create, destroy, modify its own ideas, and learn how to do things. That said, let's see how exactly conception works. Millions of sperm compete to fertilize an egg. Only one or two ultimately make it...which is by christian view God's chosen sperm (however ridiculous that sounds, the logic works in a christian viewpoint). Thus, the child resulting from that sperm is chosen by God...but presumeably doesn't have a soul since it is just a loose collection of cells.
I guess this means God wants the child to be born if he determined that it was fertilized in the first place....but then man interferes...and kills it...but God would know that beforehand, so why let that particular egg be fertile..and why waste creativity on a soul that will never be born? Or does he shelve the soul and wait for another body to come along?
Boggling subject...thanks for bringing it up!

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Post by nygreenguy »

If god is all knowing, then couldnt the verse be interpreted as god knowing the future you, the potential you?

But then again, would you be killing someone god has a plan for, or is the abortion all a part of gods plan?

Well, I do know the JW's dont believe in the idea of a soul, but still dont support abortion.

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

This is especially weird in the case of those who believe the whole world and everything is planned out. There are some who believe that all is pre-written so to speak. I would then ask if all has been planned, then wouldn't an abortion be planned as well? I have yet to get an answer to this one that doesn't try to make me look at the bunny.

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Post by Ayah5768 »

One of the things I've noticed from years of online debate is that even the most staunch pro-lifer usually allows that a women abort in the case of rape, incest, or if the mother is in physical danger. The problem I take with that is that if their position is based on God's will and that God already knows that child, they are removing the idea that the women being raped and getting pregnant was part of God's will. They are removing the idea that the act of incest was God's will. They are removing the idea that God is choosing that baby over the life of the mother. In other words, they are deciding that a woman who gets pregnant because the condom broke would be horrible for wanting to abort because God loves that baby and it is God's will that she have it, but a woman who gets raped by her father and could die if she carries the baby to term is carrying a baby that God doesn't seem to care about and her baby is outside of God's will.

To me, you have to choose. If your reasons are based on God's will then you have to admit that in the case of rape, incest, or danger to the mother the baby is still loved by God and part of God's will and the mother shouldn't be permitted to abort. If you think abortion is okay in the case of rape, incest, or danger to the mother, you have to admit that God doesn't know and love unborn fetuses and that some pregnancies are outside of God's will, therefore creating a lovely shade of gray in which a woman has to be permitted to make her very own decisions based on her own life.

I think that people who have carried a baby to term and loved that baby want to believe that that baby was always a baby, that God always knew and loved him.. that there was never a time when he was less than the wonderful little thing that he now is and there was never a time when he was "soulless". However, if they were to miscarry a baby in the first half of pregnancy, while they would certainly mourn their loss, they are not likely to have a funeral for that baby. Why? Because deep down they know that at that point their "baby" was an idea of a baby and the possibility of a baby but was not actually a baby. Deep down they know that there was hope of a human life but not an actual human life yet. Even the mother doesn't mourn a miscarriage with the intensity that she would mourn the death of a her child.


I feel very confident that I have lost track of the point of the OP, and for that I apologize. While discussing God's will, though, I think it is reasonable to point out that through the entire Torah it is made pretty clear that someone who takes a human life should be put to death, but in the below verses you see that if someone causes a woman to miscarry but causes no other major injury to the woman, he must pay a monetary fine but is not put to death.

Exodus 21:22-23, JPS Edition
When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other amage ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman's hesband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning. But if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life...
In other words, he didn't have to pay a "life for a life" because the miscarriage didn't result in a loss of life. Clearly there is a big difference between a fetus and a human life according to the Torah.

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