Essentially this question I think comes down to Free Will vs. Determism.
Does God change our hearts or do we?
I am of the opinion that God does not either predetermined or by force himself on anyone. I believe God pokes, prods, guides, talks to, reveals, etc... a person and THAT person makes the choice to follow God and allow God into their heart.
If it is God who changes our hearts then we all have been forced to do something beyond our will and are mere forced slave type servants. As opposed to willfully submitting our lives for service.
I believe the Bible says and implies that Salvation is different than the choice to be saved. Repentance and its root words essentially say that the word means to change your mind. To change your thinking. Salvation is a benefit of that, not an enabling event into heaven. Much like choosing to swim to a life boat. The life boat is the salvation, but you decided to swim to it.
Other views?
Does God Change Our Hearts, or Do We?
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Post #21
RevJP,
Welcome to the discussion. I have to disagree with you too. Sofysts argument is not Theologically sound nor Philosophically sound. I'll grant that his position is valid, but it is definately not sound. He is both philosophically and theologically saying that God is the ultimate cause of sin. As well as arguing that God also punishes sin. That doesn't wash.
My apologies if Sofyst has taken that as an attack. Or if it was read by observers as an attack. It was not meant to be. Direct, yes.
Welcome to the discussion. I have to disagree with you too. Sofysts argument is not Theologically sound nor Philosophically sound. I'll grant that his position is valid, but it is definately not sound. He is both philosophically and theologically saying that God is the ultimate cause of sin. As well as arguing that God also punishes sin. That doesn't wash.
My apologies if Sofyst has taken that as an attack. Or if it was read by observers as an attack. It was not meant to be. Direct, yes.
I don't understand. What part of my argument does not have the conclusion that We change our hearts not God?It seems to me that sophist is approaching the issue and arriving at a conclusion.
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias
Post #22
I understand completely that you have not attacked me personally. I know you have only attacked my arguments, as I have yours...no hard feelings are here. I still believe you to be mistaken about my arguments being contrary to sound reasoning, yet I must wait for the appropriate time to respond...
Post #23
Icarus,
In the strictest sense I don't see Sofyst saying God is the cause of sin, but ultimately, if one chooses to blend philosophy and theology, God is the cause of everything so it makes sense that if we look back far enough, look deep enough, we can rightly say that He is the cause.
Although I think that method of thinking is unproductive in theological scenarios as it does nothing to address the real issues at hand.
Theologically his arguments are sound. It is your argument I find unsettling. Your argument basically puts man in a position of power over God. OUR choice? When did we become that which can choose or reject the almighty God of our own power?
Theologically that denies God's soveriegnty, it denies a basic scriptural tennet which tells us that we cannot choose God of our own volition. Are we not told that 'no man seeks God, no not one'? If we do not seek Him, does it not then follow that we cannot choose Him? How then do we meet God? Through HIS grace, HIS power. Our abilty to choose Him is given to us by Him.
In the strictest sense I don't see Sofyst saying God is the cause of sin, but ultimately, if one chooses to blend philosophy and theology, God is the cause of everything so it makes sense that if we look back far enough, look deep enough, we can rightly say that He is the cause.
Although I think that method of thinking is unproductive in theological scenarios as it does nothing to address the real issues at hand.
Theologically his arguments are sound. It is your argument I find unsettling. Your argument basically puts man in a position of power over God. OUR choice? When did we become that which can choose or reject the almighty God of our own power?
Theologically that denies God's soveriegnty, it denies a basic scriptural tennet which tells us that we cannot choose God of our own volition. Are we not told that 'no man seeks God, no not one'? If we do not seek Him, does it not then follow that we cannot choose Him? How then do we meet God? Through HIS grace, HIS power. Our abilty to choose Him is given to us by Him.
Post #24
I have been thinking more about the questions at hand. The discussion has revolved around whether God hardens the heart, specifically in the instance of Moses and the Pharoh or whether or not the heart was hardened without God's direct action. The essential quality of this debate really has surrounded whether or not God is soveriegn or is he at the whim of our choices - at least this is what I am seeing.
Can we choose or reject God? Can Pharoh harden or soften his heart despite the will of God? It seems this is the basic difference between a Calvinist and Arminian POV. I hesitate to divert the discussion because the debate on the logic of what scripture actually says God did or didn't do is seemingly so debateable
(really though, without the sarcasm, scripture is pretty darn clear on the fact that God did harden the heart, He took an active role in hardening, not a passive role in sitting back and letting the heart be hardened by Pharoh himself, no amount of theological and philisophical gymnastics can change the word of scripture in this case.)
So I will offer that the true essence of the debate is one of soveriegnty and ability. Are we able to choose or reject God in spite of His will?
Can we choose or reject God? Can Pharoh harden or soften his heart despite the will of God? It seems this is the basic difference between a Calvinist and Arminian POV. I hesitate to divert the discussion because the debate on the logic of what scripture actually says God did or didn't do is seemingly so debateable
(really though, without the sarcasm, scripture is pretty darn clear on the fact that God did harden the heart, He took an active role in hardening, not a passive role in sitting back and letting the heart be hardened by Pharoh himself, no amount of theological and philisophical gymnastics can change the word of scripture in this case.)So I will offer that the true essence of the debate is one of soveriegnty and ability. Are we able to choose or reject God in spite of His will?
Post #25
You are seeing it through a mirror dimly. But to a point you are getting it. I would not use such a strong term as 'whim' to describe the whole scenario I am proposing. In relation to us choosing God or not, yes God has a self imposed powerlessness to change our hearts to choose Him. But that does not mean he is not out there coaxing us. Which is why I mentioned Jesus' own "I stand at the door and knock". You could also take into account Romans 10:17 "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God". If we use your interpretation (using only the English I might add), Faith can only come by hearing the Word of God, not by any other means. So again we have a contradiction of avenue's to which one gets access to be saved. So your dilemma is not resolved with "scripture is pretty darn clear on the fact" using simple english words without taking into account the consequences of not using the whole idea. Or even the original word term usage and intent.... whether or not God is soveriegn or is he at the whim of our choices - at least this is what I am seeing.
I would also use "those who seek, find. those who ask receive. those who knock the door will be opened." to support why I believe in the acceptance issue of following God. God beckons but we chose wholly and freely first. For God to do otherwise would be contradictory to God's nature.
It wouldn't be debatable if you'd use sound theology to see it properly.seemingly so debateable
(entirely said in friendly jest)
I am taken aback by this statement. I will think the best of it as not being a conscience effort to be an affront to my argument or my mental processes. I did work it over in check with myself to see if I am just creating exercises for the sake of arguing. And I did not see such. I'd be happy to accept a correction, as I have before in arguments and discussions, and my mind had been changed. But so far all I see in the counter argument is that some are uncomfortable with certain logical limitations of God. Unless you are telling me that God can contradict himself and still be single minded as the bible states, I think it perfectly fine for God to not have control over our willingness to accept Him. Which by the way I'll state again, is self imposed on God by God in order to have perfectly free love from His creation....no amount of theological and philisophical gymnastics can change the word of scripture in this case.
The other point I don't understand about this statement is why is it seen as thinking gymnastics when great Theologians and Philosophers plainly state "that is NOT what is meant!" (and not only on the Pharaoh issue). I'll hazard to ask you if it might be you who is choosing to not fully think on it? The logic, the real consequences.... And so has given up to that which is comfortable to you? Scripture is not being changed, it is being rightly divided or rather sought to understand a certain aspect of God, and not dogmatically held to an english literalistic view of a single word. If the Scripture is to be taken so, then you should be missing at least one eye, one hand and one foot. Because Jesus said "if your eye causes you to sin, cut it out. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. For it would be better to enter Heaven with one hand (et al) than to enter Hell with both". Sooo, are you missing any limbs or are you sinless?
I have already answered this question. Yes.Are we able to choose or reject God in spite of His will?
Satan did. The angels that followed him did. Eve did. Adam did. Cain did. Jonah did. ....... You and I do.
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias
Post #26
This is truly the crux of the argument isn't it? You claim we can choose or reject God in spite of His will...I have already answered this question. Yes.
Satan did. The angels that followed him did. Eve did. Adam did. Cain did. Jonah did. ....... You and I do.
You reject His omnipotence, you reject His soveriegnty in favor of our own. You reject scripture which tells us that we are incapable of seeking God, you reject scripture which tells us that His desires will be done.
Your claim says that satan, eve, adam, cain, jonah all chose or rejected God in spite of His will. That would have to be shown to be true, and I do not see where in scripture anyone of these have been shown to defy God's will, in such a manner that He was powerless to prevent it.
Post #27
RevJP,
I can tell you are a Determinist.
I'm sorry man, but I don't think you are listening. Unless you mull over what I actually am saying and not what you think I am saying then we probably should not continue this with each other. You are taking my argument too far from its single intent -choice in ACCEPTING God. NOT that we alone can break God's will or that we can overthrow God's sovereignty.
It is your argument that must show how mine takes away from Omnipotence and Sovereignty (and not by simply saying that it does). By your raising the point about God's omnipotence and sovereignty against not only in context of my argument but even out of context of it tells me you have not fully grasped what omnipotence and sovereignty TRULY entails.
Let me clarify some points while I'm here. And please don't think I am attacking you in any of this post. I never said nor implied that we were the ones SEEKING God. I said AND implied that God is the one who seeks us out. WE are the ones who freely say yes/no to his calling. I never said/implied that us saying yes/no to accepting that knock on our hearts to follow God thwarts ANY of God's will. Let's talk about God's Will.
There are three levels to the Will of God. Decretive, Preceptive and Permissive. In all, God is sovereign in that He has control over any situation and choses which Will to exercise.
In the Decretive Will God decides something will happen. If God Decrees something to happen, it will, such as God decreeing that the Israelites will be in captivity for 400 years for its rebellion. Nothing can thwart a decretive will.
The Preceptive Will is more like a parental type in that we'd like our children to grow up to be doctors or lawyers and be respectable members of society, but we still leave it up to them to decide which road to take. Then we deal with it from there.
The Permissive Will is where God did not Decree something should happen nor desired (Preceptive) it but it is "permitted". This is where the Free Will of humans/evil come in. He does not want us to do certain things but will let us "do our thing". These things can be both good and bad. In that we have the free will to choose to help someone or to hurt someone. (note: here is also where it can go back to the other Wills and his sovereignty. God can intervene on that Free Will choice if he has a different Decree for the party/consequences of that decision. So even if your decision is to help that person, God could still see to it otherwise because he wants something else to happen. The same with evil events.)
The issue we as finite humans have is confusing Control and Causation. The key to sovereignty is Ultimate Control. God has the ability to see the sequence and consequence of actions and it is with that knowledge and "gate keeping" will He permit or prevent an event/action. Only in the Decretive Will does Causation from God occur. God does not cause evil, in his sovereignty he permits the actions of others/events. The other two wills fall under Control or gate keeping.
My argument flows with God's Will. Not against it.
I can tell you are a Determinist.
I'm sorry man, but I don't think you are listening. Unless you mull over what I actually am saying and not what you think I am saying then we probably should not continue this with each other. You are taking my argument too far from its single intent -choice in ACCEPTING God. NOT that we alone can break God's will or that we can overthrow God's sovereignty.
It is your argument that must show how mine takes away from Omnipotence and Sovereignty (and not by simply saying that it does). By your raising the point about God's omnipotence and sovereignty against not only in context of my argument but even out of context of it tells me you have not fully grasped what omnipotence and sovereignty TRULY entails.
Let me clarify some points while I'm here. And please don't think I am attacking you in any of this post. I never said nor implied that we were the ones SEEKING God. I said AND implied that God is the one who seeks us out. WE are the ones who freely say yes/no to his calling. I never said/implied that us saying yes/no to accepting that knock on our hearts to follow God thwarts ANY of God's will. Let's talk about God's Will.
There are three levels to the Will of God. Decretive, Preceptive and Permissive. In all, God is sovereign in that He has control over any situation and choses which Will to exercise.
In the Decretive Will God decides something will happen. If God Decrees something to happen, it will, such as God decreeing that the Israelites will be in captivity for 400 years for its rebellion. Nothing can thwart a decretive will.
The Preceptive Will is more like a parental type in that we'd like our children to grow up to be doctors or lawyers and be respectable members of society, but we still leave it up to them to decide which road to take. Then we deal with it from there.
The Permissive Will is where God did not Decree something should happen nor desired (Preceptive) it but it is "permitted". This is where the Free Will of humans/evil come in. He does not want us to do certain things but will let us "do our thing". These things can be both good and bad. In that we have the free will to choose to help someone or to hurt someone. (note: here is also where it can go back to the other Wills and his sovereignty. God can intervene on that Free Will choice if he has a different Decree for the party/consequences of that decision. So even if your decision is to help that person, God could still see to it otherwise because he wants something else to happen. The same with evil events.)
The issue we as finite humans have is confusing Control and Causation. The key to sovereignty is Ultimate Control. God has the ability to see the sequence and consequence of actions and it is with that knowledge and "gate keeping" will He permit or prevent an event/action. Only in the Decretive Will does Causation from God occur. God does not cause evil, in his sovereignty he permits the actions of others/events. The other two wills fall under Control or gate keeping.
My argument flows with God's Will. Not against it.
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias
Post #28
Let me also clarify something I caught. I was sidetracking and merging two thoughts on "rejection" in my last post mentioning Jonah, Satan, et al.
I hold to the fact that we can still refuse what God is asking us to do. Which is why I reference Jonah, Cain, Satain... but that is not my intent of the argument of a heart accepting God. Not that God won't coax us back into what he'd like, but that is a different argument.
I hold to the fact that we can still refuse what God is asking us to do. Which is why I reference Jonah, Cain, Satain... but that is not my intent of the argument of a heart accepting God. Not that God won't coax us back into what he'd like, but that is a different argument.
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias
Post #29
Nice dissertation on the will of God. Perhaps it would save misunderstanding if one referred to the specific element of will when discussing His will.
Two things:
I don't really know what a 'determinist' is, perhaps you could enlighten me? I'm not really big on labels as they tend to pigeonhole people unrealistically.
Two things:
I would like to see support for this idea if you please. I'm just interested in the scriptural and doctrinal support for a 'self-imposed powerlessness'. I am fully aware of Jesus' self-imposed subjugation to the Father's will, while on earth, but I do not see how that could translate over - perhaps you have another reference(s)?In relation to us choosing God or not, yes God has a self imposed powerlessness to change our hearts to choose Him.
Hmmm.... not sure if I should take offense at this or notI can tell you are a Determinist
I don't really know what a 'determinist' is, perhaps you could enlighten me? I'm not really big on labels as they tend to pigeonhole people unrealistically.
