Bodily Resurrection Dilemma?

[myth-one.com]

Many Christians believe in the rejoining of an incorruptible physical body with the eternal soul at the resurrection. This "resurrection of the body" doctrine is included in many affirmations of faith. However, no one composed of any flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

The ultimate goal of virtually every Christian is to spend eternity with God in heaven. But the bodily resurrection theology directly conflicts with this goal! Both cannot be true! If your soul and body are reunited, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God!

Question: If you believe Christian "souls" and physical bodies will be reunited, how can we enter the Kingdom of God and heaven?

[Goose]

Many Christians believe in the rejoining of an incorruptible physical body with the eternal soul at the resurrection. This "resurrection of the body" doctrine is included in many affirmations of faith. However, no one composed of any flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

"Flesh and Blood" was an ancient conceptual Semitic term denoting humanity or mankind in general - i.e. the nature of human frailty (cf. Matt 16:17, Gal 1:16, Eph 6:12, Heb 2:14). It's much the same as how we might say hot-blooded denoting a temper. "Flesh and blood" was also used to denote one's off-spring or family (cf. Gen 37:27, 2Chron 6:9). It was not used to denote human flesh in a physical sense. The term "flesh and bone" was used to denote the physical being of a person or our body. "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." (Luke 24:39). (cf. Job 2:5).

Paul didn't say that a physical body cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. He said the weakness of mankind, the corruption, will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul tells us our corruptible body must be changed to become a supernatural body so that it can become compatible with and inherit the Kingdom of God.

The ultimate goal of virtually every Christian is to spend eternity with God in heaven. But the bodily resurrection theology directly conflicts with this goal! Both cannot be true! If your soul and body are reunited, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God!

Why not? We are told the body will be changed to become compatible.

Question: If you believe Christian "souls" and physical bodies will be reunited, how can we enter the Kingdom of God and heaven?

Paul tells us in the same section you quoted from.

1Co 15:51-54 "Let me tell you a secret. Not all of us will die, but all of us will be changed- in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. Indeed, that trumpet will sound, and then the dead will be raised never to decay, and we will be changed. For what is decaying must put on what cannot decay, and what is dying must put on what cannot die. Now, when what is decaying puts on what cannot decay, and what is dying puts on what cannot die, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up in victory!"

Also in Philippians 3:20-21 "Our citizenship, however, is in heaven, and it is from there that we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will change our humble bodies and make them like his glorious body through the power that enables him to bring everything under his authority."

If you are suggesting Paul advocated a spiritual resurrection of Jesus there are many problems with this position. To hold this position one must:

1) Ignore the fact that Paul, being a Pharisee, would have held to the physical resurrection of the dead.
2) Ignore all the direct testimony from Paul where he clearly speaks of a bodily resurrection - 1 Cor 15:3-4 for example.
3) Ignore the Gospel accounts that clearly portray a resurrected Jesus with a physical body.
4) Primarily appeal to some strained interpretations of Paul's analogies found in such places as 1 Corinthians 15:35-44.

[myth-one.com]

Hi Goose. Some comments regarding your above posting:

The Bible describes two types of beings, natural or physical and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

These two body types are different and each requires a different birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

What type of birth must being born again be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! For man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type, a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the spiritual Kingdom of God! There are two "worlds," the physical and the spiritual.

Paul gives a comparison of the human body versus the spiritual body which all dead Christians will be resurrected with:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This scripture is not complicated. The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This can only be the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die. At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state!

The ultimate goal of virtually every Christian is to spend eternity with God in heaven. But the bodily resurrection theology directly conflicts with this goal! Both cannot be true! If your soul and body are reunited, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God!

Why not? We are told the body will be changed to become compatible.

But flesh and blood is incompatible with the Kingdom of God, thus we are born again (or changed) into everlasting spiritual beings.

1Co 15:51-54 "Let me tell you a secret. Not all of us will die, but all of us will be changed- in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. Indeed, that trumpet will sound, and then the dead will be raised never to decay, and we will be changed. For what is decaying must put on what cannot decay, and what is dying must put on what cannot die. Now, when what is decaying puts on what cannot decay, and what is dying puts on what cannot die, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up in victory!"

At the Second Coming, every dead Christian will be resurrected as a spiritual body which lives forever. At that same time, Christians who are alive will be changed to spiritual bodies and meet Jesus and the resurrected Christians in the air. Spiritual bodies do not decay and are immortal. These new angels will then spend the millennium with Jesus. After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as physical human bodies. Those who do not accept Jesus as their Savior are cast into hell and quickly suffer their second and permanent death.

Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a human into the human world, and ascended to heaven as a spirit shortly afterward. When He appeared to His disciples after being raised from the dead, they initially thought they were seeing a spirit, or ghost:

But they were terrified and affrightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus Christ states that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones." This negates the nonsense that man is a soul housed within a physical body. Jesus states that they do not mix! Jesus Christ was never flesh and spirit at the same time!

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

If our spiritual bodies are connected with physical bodies, we cannot move as the wind. We would be handicapped spiritual bodies.

The reward of the saved is everlasting life. We are not born with our reward! That is what Satan tricks mankind into believing by telling us we will live forever: "Ye shall not surely die." Due to belief in this lie, untold numbers have been prevented from becoming Christians.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have (future tense) everlasting life.

[Goose]

Hi Goose. Some comments regarding your above posting:

I think there are some things we agree upon, but some that we do not. I'll point out the areas I think there are problems for your position to give you some food for thought.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

These two body types are different and each requires a different birth:

As we shall see this verse when taken in context is actually contrasting a body oriented toward the natural world vs a body oriented toward the supernatural world. That is a natural inclined body vs. a spiritual inclined body. Not a physcial body vs. a spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God:

I think you are reading too much into this verse.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

What type of birth must being born again be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! For man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type, a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the spiritual Kingdom of God! There are two "worlds," the physical and the spiritual.

In these scriptures from John, Jesus is not saying that a man must abandon his physical body (i.e. die) and then be born again as a spirit to enter heaven. In this whole section from John, Jesus is outlining what is necessary for eternal life as summarized in John 3:15-17 - "so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." The references to being "born again" in John 3:3-5 is a spiritual renewal, a new birth spiritually speaking, a new commitment, a new start, a turning point from the old sinful man to the new man - that is a believer. It's placed in the present tense as a requirement for eternal life. This is highlighted by Jesus when he says in the scripture you've noted above, "...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Now, why do you suppose Jesus said, "born of water and of the Spirit"? Here's why:

Mark tells us that John the Baptist said of Jesus, "The one who is coming after me is stronger than I am, and I am not worthy to bend down and untie his sandal straps. I baptized you with water, but it is he who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (Mark 1:7-8) Water baptism is a public declaration of repentence and a turning point. Death to the old sinful man (going under the water) and the rebirth of a new spiritually oriented and committed new man (coming up from the water). In John 3:3-6 Jesus is obviously telling us that one must be reborn spiritually in this life, not be reborn AS a spirit after death to enter the Kingdom of God as you've described.

Compare this notion of spiritual rebirth (becoming born again) to Peter's preaching in Acts 2:38-39.

"Peter answered them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. For this promise belongs to you and your children, as well as to all those who are far away, whom the Lord our God may call to himself."

Additionally, Peter speaks directly of this concept of a spiritual renewal (or becoming born again) in a past tense sense and requirement for becoming a believer as he is addressing existing believers.

"Now that you have obeyed the truth and have purified your souls to love your brothers sincerely, you must love one another intensely and with a pure heart. For you have been born again, not by a seed that perishes but by one that cannot perish-by the living and everlasting word of God."

(1Peter 1:22-23)

It would be the result of poor exegesis to think that in order to have eternal life one must be "born again" and that means that one must die and be reborn as a spirit. This would imply that anyone who dies recieves eternal life in the Kingdom of God just by dieing. There is simply nothing in scripture to support this notion.




You've quoted from John so I'll assume you accept this book. Let's look at what John tells us about Jesus' resurrected body.

Firstly, Jesus predicts his own resurrection and gives a glimpse into the nature of his resurrected body in John 2:18-21:

Then the Jews said to him, "What sign can you show us as authority for doing these things?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this sanctuary, and in three days I will rebuild it." The Jews said, "This sanctuary has been under construction for forty-six years, and you're going to rebuild it in three days?" But the sanctuary he was speaking about was his own body."

Not his spirit, but his body. If Jesus meant he would be raised as a spirit, he would have either used a different analogy or simply said so. Using a temple or sanctuary is a very physical analogy. There's no mistaking what Jesus meant here.

Speaking to Mary after his resurrection Jesus said to her, "Don't hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17). Jesus is depicted with a physical body that can be held.

And later Jesus invites Thomas to touch him when Jesus said, "Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Take your hand, and put it into my side. Stop doubting, but believe." (John 20:27). And to top it off Jesus eats breakfast with his followers (John 21:15). I don't see how one can read the Gospels and come to the conclusion that Jesus' resurrected body was an immaterial spirit. If Jesus' resurrected body was material it is reasonable to conclude ours will be also.

Paul gives a comparison of the human body versus the spiritual body which all dead Christians will be resurrected with:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This scripture is not complicated. The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This can only be the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die. At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state!

We need to differentiate between being raised a spiritually oriented body and being raised as a spirit. If Paul was saying that the resurrected body is a spirit and an immaterial body then Paul was also saying that he believed a seed sown in the ground produces a spirit-plant that is immaterial. But that would be unfair to Paul. No reasonable person believes seeds planted in the ground produce spirit-plants. It is a much easier interpretation to think that Paul used a seed analogy to illustrate the notion our bodies will rise as something glorious and physical in the same way that a seed goes into the ground and changes into a plant - a glorious and powerful product of the seed. But still made of the same physical material as the seed.

Also notice that Paul uses the Greek word for "body" (soma) in the context of the raised spiritual body. If Paul meant that the raised body was not some type of a material body but rather only an immaterial spirit he would have merely used the Greek word for spiritual (pneumatikos) with no connection to a "body" as he does in 1 Cor 9:11. Pneumatikos or spiritual means "non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual" (Strong's). Or Paul could have used the Greek for a "spirit" (pneuma) which means "a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind." (Strong's). This would have been much simpler and less open to misinterpretation if this is what Paul had meant. Paul obviously wanted his readers to think there was a physicality to the resurrected body. He was not contrasting a physical body with a spirit. In 1 Cor 15 Paul is distinguishing between a holy, immortal and supernatural body that is oriented towards the spiritual world with spiritual appetites vs. a weak, sinful, perishable and corruptible body that is oriented toward the things the natural body craves.

Further, in 1 Cor 15:42-44 Paul uses the terminology natural(psychikos) and spiritual(pneumatikos). Does Paul use them elsewhere in a similar context to help bring some clarity to this issue? Yes he does.

1Co 2:14-15 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one."

Paul is not contrasting a physical man with a spirit man in 1Corinthians 2:14-25. He is contrasting a spiritually oriented man (i.e. a believer) with a naturally (i.e. a non-believer) oriented man. Similarly in 1Corinthians 15:44 Paul is not contrasting a physical body with a spirit. He is not saying what is buried is physical and what is raised is spirit. Paul is clearly contrasting a natural body that craves the things of the natural world with a spiritual body that craves the things of the spiritual world in 1Cor 15.

The ultimate goal of virtually every Christian is to spend eternity with God in heaven. But the bodily resurrection theology directly conflicts with this goal! Both cannot be true! If your soul and body are reunited, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God!

Why not? We are told the body will be changed to become compatible.

But flesh and blood is incompatible with the Kingdom of God, thus we are born again (or changed) into everlasting spiritual beings.

I disagree. We are not "born again" as a spirit-being after we die. It appears this is what you are implying and no where does it state this in scripture. We do, however, become everlasting beings, yes, but not merely immaterial spirits. Now, how physical or the nature of that physicality might be open to debate I suppose.

1Co 15:51-54 "Let me tell you a secret. Not all of us will die, but all of us will be changed- in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. Indeed, that trumpet will sound, and then the dead will be raised never to decay, and we will be changed. For what is decaying must put on what cannot decay, and what is dying must put on what cannot die. Now, when what is decaying puts on what cannot decay, and what is dying puts on what cannot die, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up in victory!"

At the Second Coming, every dead Christian will be resurrected as a spiritual body which lives forever. At that same time, Christians who are alive will be changed to spiritual bodies and meet Jesus and the resurrected Christians in the air...

If you are implying we will become spirits, Paul disagrees with you in the above scripture. Paul doesn't say we will become spirits. He says our bodies will be changed by taking on that which will not decay. In other words immortality.

... Spiritual bodies do not decay and are immortal. These new angels will then spend the millennium with Jesus. After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as physical human bodies. Those who do not accept Jesus as their Savior are cast into hell and quickly suffer their second and permanent death.

This sounds like a form of rapture, premillennialism, and final judgement. I find it curious you hold to these fairly literal and mainly orthodox doctrines but reject the orthodox view of a bodily resurrection. The scriptures you would appeal to in support of these ideas you've mentioned, such as 1 Thessalonians 4 13:18, profess a bodily resurrection and make no mention of spirits.

1Thess 4:13-17:

"But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve like other people who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so it is through Jesus that God will bring back with him those who have died. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have died. With a shout of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of God's trumpet, the Lord himself will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a human into the human world, and ascended to heaven as a spirit shortly afterward. When He appeared to His disciples after being raised from the dead, they initially thought they were seeing a spirit, or ghost:

There is nothing in the ascension account to lead us to think Jesus ascended as only a spirit. Of course Jesus' followers initially thought they were seeing a spirit - that's because Jesus had died. There was no expectation in Jewish thought for the messiah to rise from the dead. They were probably shocked and a puzzled at first - I would be too. But as the scripture in Luke tells us, the resurrected Jesus was very much physical and invited his followers to touch him.

But they were terrified and affrightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus Christ states that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones." This negates the nonsense that man is a soul housed within a physical body.

Not quite. Considering Jesus made this statement after he was resurrected and is attempting to prove to his followers that he was NOT a spirit it negates the non-sense that Jesus was raised as a spirit or that we will be raised as spirits.

[myth-one.com]

Hi Goose,

We agree that the resurrected body of Jesus was a physical human body. Sorry you spent effort there. You might explain why you feel that to be significant.
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You write as if you correctly believe that mankind is not born with eternal life. For example, you wrote "In this whole section from John, Jesus is outlining what is necessary for eternal life..." Yet you believe all mankind to be resurrected with physical bodies. So when do you believe Christians receive their spiritual bodies, if ever? Also, what happens to nonbelievers?

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The Son of God is a spiritual body. He became a human physical body for a reason -- so He could suffer and die for mankind's sins. If someone has a spiritual body, what benefits are derived from being attached eternally to a physical human body? They would require access to oxygen, water, shelter, and food. They could feel pain, fear, sadness, misery, and other emotions. Yippie!

Jesus states that no man can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born a second time. The first and obvious birth is a physical process involving water. We are composed of approximately 70% water and carried in water in the womb. All humans who have been born since the creation of Adam and Eve have been born of water. This first birth gets us into the animal kingdom as Homo sapiens, or man. Although man is a living breathing animal, he was created in the image of God, and is the only animal capable of being born again as a spirit.

Some confuse the phrase "born of water" as meaning we must be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God. Thus the tradition of baptizing babies was created. However, it should be obvious to anyone that to enter the Kingdom of God, one must first be born as a human being, and not some other animal. Of all the animal kingdom, only man may gain eternal life, as the process involves making a cognitive choice, and man is the only animal with freedom of choice. The Bible specifically states that the two bodies (natural and spiritual) are separate, and come in two stages. The natural body comes first and is then followed by the spiritual body:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last. They are different and are never merged together at anytime in the scriptures! All men are born as natural or physical flesh and blood bodies, and those who believe in Jesus will be born again as spiritual bodies when Jesus returns! So the second birth, that of being born again, is clearly defined as a spiritual birth. The natural comes first because once one becomes a spirit, it cannot be undone. A spirit is immortal and cannot be killed. God does not want to risk being "stuck" with more eternal rebels. Mankind must show allegiance to God by accepting His Son as their Savior as a prerequisite to gaining everlasting life. So we must be born of water as a human, then accept Jesus and be born again as a spirit into the Kingdom of God.
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It would be the result of poor exegesis to think that in order to have eternal life one must be "born again" and that means that one must die and be reborn as a spirit. This would imply that anyone who dies recieves eternal life in the Kingdom of God just by dieing. There is simply nothing in scripture to support this notion.

What?? Only those believing in Jesus as their Savior become heirs to everlasting life. They will be born again at the Second Coming as everlasting spiritual bodies into the Kingdom of God (no flesh & blood). All nonbelievers will be resurrected after the millennium as flesh and blood human bodies (no souls, spirits, ghosts, etc). They will face the judgment, and those not choosing Jesus as their Savior will be cast into the lake of fire and die their second and permanent death. That will be the end of man.

[Goose]

Hi Goose,

We agree that the resurrected body of Jesus was a physical human body. Sorry you spent effort there...

OK that's good. I was under the impression you held to a spiritual resurrection of Jesus. TSorry, that was probably more of an assumption on my part. It appeared you were alluding to this with comments such as:

Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a human into the human world, and ascended to heaven as a spirit shortly afterward. When He appeared to His disciples after being raised from the dead, they initially thought they were seeing a spirit, or ghost:

It came across as you holding to a spiritual resurrection of Jesus. Especially all this talk about being born again as a spirit. BTW, maybe you could explain how and provide scripture that shows Jesus ascended as an immaterial spirit. What happened to his body at the moment he ascended? Did it just vanish or collapse lifeless?

...You might explain why you feel that to be significant.

The nature of Jesus resurrected body in this topic is very significant because he is the best model of a resurrected person we have to examine in scripture. If Jesus' resurrected body was material then it is reasonable to think ours will be also. If Jesus was resurrected as a spirit then the same applies to us. This also has knock-on effects which, though very important, are perhaps not on topic here. For instance, if Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection of believers then Paul may have also believed in a spiritual resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus was resurrected as a spirit then the miracle and therefore the potency of the crux of Christianity, the resurrection, is significantly diluted - or so the argument runs. At any rate, Paul considered Jesus the first fruits of the general resurrection of the dead as did the other NT writers. If Jesus was the first to be resurrected then it makes sense we are to follow in similar manner and form.

Luke quotes Paul in Act 26:23 "...that the Christ would suffer and be the first to rise from the dead and would announce light to our people and the gentiles."

Paul addressing the Corinthians in 1Cor 15:20-23 "But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming."

Revelations 1:5 "Jesus Christ, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth."

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You write as if you correctly believe that mankind is not born with eternal life. For example, you wrote "In this whole section from John, Jesus is outlining what is necessary for eternal life..." Yet you believe all mankind to be resurrected with physical bodies.

No, I don't believe ALL mankind will be resurrected with physical bodies and neither do the NT writers. Believers will be resurrected with a material body.

So when do you believe Christians receive their spiritual bodies, if ever?

This is going off on a rabbit trail. Pre-trib, post-trib, and so-on.

Also, what happens to nonbelievers?

Also off topic. These are really separate debates and relatively inconsequential in my opinion. The topic here is the resurrected body of the believer.

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This issue over "born again" seems to be the primary disconnect we are having. Your entire position that we will be "born again" as spirits at the second coming hinges on a few rather ambiguous statements made by Jesus in John 3:3,5-6 and Paul in 1Cor 15:35ff. It's always dangerous to build a theology around a few obscure and ambiguous verses taken out of context. Especially when there is an abundance of evidence contradicting the position.

The Son of God is a spiritual body. He became a human physical body for a reason -- so He could suffer and die for mankind's sins. If someone has a spiritual body, what benefits are derived from being attached eternally to a physical human body? They would require access to oxygen, water, shelter, and food. They could feel pain, fear, sadness, misery, and other emotions. Yippie!

Most of what you've listed here are assumptions. Paul's whole section in 1Cor 15:35-54 is presumably answering the same types of questions from the Corinthians and Paul calls the Corinthians foolish for this!

This next part is important.

Jesus states that no man can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born a second time. The first and obvious birth is a physical process involving water. We are composed of approximately 70% water and carried in water in the womb. All humans who have been born since the creation of Adam and Eve have been born of water. This first birth gets us into the animal kingdom as Homo sapiens, or man. Although man is a living breathing animal, he was created in the image of God, and is the only animal capable of being born again as a spirit.

Some confuse the phrase "born of water" as meaning we must be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God. Thus the tradition of baptizing babies was created...

I didn't mean to imply that water baptism is a necessity for salvation. The ritual of water baptism is rooted in Jewish concepts of becoming clean from sin and the connection between water and spirit and this cleansing. When Jesus says you must be born of water and the Spirit in the context of being "born again" he isn't referring to being born out of amniotic fluid first then as a spirit later after death.

The Greek word used for "born" isgennaō. It means "to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring" (Strong's). Jesus uses "born" metaphorically here as he is not giving a genealogy in the sense of procreation. It can therefore be translated to mean regenerate, that is "2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite 2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone 2c) of God making Christ his son 2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work" (Thayer's). The Greek word used for "again" is anōthen. It means "from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top." (Strong's). As Jesus is using this term "born again" as a symbolism and not literally procreation it is hard to think that he means literally that we are to be procreated or conceived FROM or BY water then later procreated or conceived as a spirit. It's much simpler to think Jesus meant a spiritual renewal and cleansing, a regeneration of one's spiritual orientation or a spiritual rebirth, which is a common theme in Jewish thought found in the Bible and other Jewish writings. Allow me to illustrate where this Jewish thought of cleansing and spiritual renewal comes from.

Eze 36:25-27 "And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them."

Other Jewish writings such as those found at Qumran have a similar sentiment "He will cleanse him of all wicked deeds by means of a holy spirit; like purifying waters He will sprinkle upon him the spirit of truth."(1QS 4:19-21)

So this concept of becoming clean before God through water and the Spirit is directly connected to having a new heart towards God. A renewal, a new begining, a spiritual rebirth, a cleansing. There is no reason to think Jesus meant that being born of water and Spirit meant anything other than a cleansing from sin in light of this Jewish thinking.

I'll add on a lesser note that Jesus does NOT say, "unless a person is born of water and then later after death be reborn as a spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."Nor does he allude to this idea. Jesus says, "unless a person is born of water AND Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." This is a simultaneous act of cleansing and spiritual renewal spoken in the context of something that must take place during this life before one can enter the Kingdom. It's the concept of renewal and how the Jewish thinking of water and the Spirit and cleansing plays into this which is key here, not amniotic fluid.

I'll also add that Jesus wording does not give us the impression in John 3:5 that being born of the Spirit means having one's own spirit reborn after death by the Spirit. There is a very clear distinction that the spirit being spoken of is THE Spirit, that is the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is doing a work in the potential believer, not that we must be born AS a spirit.

One last point on John 3:5. If we read on a few more verses after Jesus finishes speaking, John tells us that Jesus was baptizing and people were coming to him(John 3:22,26). This fits nicely with John 3:5 and is a good confirmation to the notion that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of water and the Sprit in the context of a cleansing and renewal.

Finally, this idea that there was an expectation of believers to be "born again" - that is cleansed and spiritually renewed in this life - is confirmed by Peter, "Now that you have obeyed the truth and have purified your souls to love your brothers sincerely, you must love one another intensely and with a pure heart. For you have been born again, not by a seed that perishes but by one that cannot perish-by the living and everlasting word of God." (1Peter 1:22-23).

[myth-one.com]

Maybe you could explain how and provide scripture that shows Jesus ascended as an immaterial spirit. What happened to his body at the moment he ascended? Did it just vanish or collapse lifeless?

The scriptures would be the same as I quoted before. That is, there are two body types, physical and spiritual; Jesus came to earth as a human, died a physical death, and was resurrected as a human. About 40 days later He is said to ascend to heaven. But flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God of which Heaven is a part. Thus, the only way He could enter Heaven was to change His body type to a spiritual body containing no flesh. I cannot point to one verse (right this minute) stating that Jesus ascended to heaven as a spirit, or what became of His no longer required physical body. Likewise, I cannot find a verse stating that He ascended to heaven as a human, thus violated the restriction of no flesh and blood in Heaven. In Luke, it is stated that the apostles witnessed the ascension:

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried into heaven.

That being the case, I cannot imagine His body being left on the ground and never mentioned by the apostles, so it probably did not collapse lifeless. Also lending credence to His ascension as a spirit is Jesus' talk about two totally different worlds, the physical world and the spiritual. One such instance was after telling Nicodemus that he must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus asked for more info, "How can these things be?" Jesus' reply was that Nicodemus would not understand heavenly matters:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Since ascending to heaven was also a spiritual world event, perhaps it was not explained for that same reason. That is, we would not understand it.

The ascension of Jesus is a model of what will occur to Christians living at the time of the Second Coming:

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed (born again as a spirit), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul wrote First Corinthians to the church at Corinth, so "we" refers to Christians. The dead "shall be raised incorruptible," refers to dead and buried Christians who shall be born again as spirits. The only incorruptible body is a spiritual body. "We shall all be changed," means all Christians will be changed into spirits, those still alive on earth and those dead and buried. The "mystery that not all will sleep," refers to Christians who will be living on the earth when Christ returns. They will be born again as spirits immediately and meet Jesus in the air. This is also mentioned in Matthew:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

So Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed and ascend to meet Jesus and the others in the air. Since these Christians are physical bodies and they have to be "changed" or born again as spiritual bodies to ascend into the air, and they are mimicking Jesus' asension, there is no doubt that Jesus had to become a spirit to ascend into heaven. Notice Matthew 16:28 indicates that Christians alive at the Second Coming do "taste death" when changed to everlasting spiritual life. But once again, no mention of any bodies. They must "die" so that the following verse remains true:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, ...

It is appointed that all of us die once, the second death is optional.

=============================== Jesus' resurrection as a model for mankind ===============================

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Every human who ever died shall be resurrected or "made alive" again. Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected, and that has already occurred. The group that will be resurrected next are all dead Christians, "they that are Christ's," which will be resurrected at the Second Coming, or "at His coming." Also at the Second Coming, all Christians that are alive will be changed or born again as spirits and meet Jesus and the resurrected Christians in the air. That is, every Christian, dead or alive will be born again as a spirit at that time. Real death is permanent! But since every human who ever "died" will live again, the Bible describes dead humans as sleeping or resting in their graves, and states that the dead know not any thing. That is, they are not truly dead because they will live again -- thus they are sleeping. The first mass resurrection of humans consists of all dead Christians and is described in Revelation:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

All of these born again Christians will then spend the millennium with Jesus. The second resurrection for humans then occurs and consists of all dead nonbelievers. Remember that all dead Christians were resurrected at the Second Coming. These nonbelievers are resurrected as physical bodies once again with a 120 maximum life span:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life...

All dead humans will be resurrected, but only some will awaken to everlasting life. These "some" are the Christians resurrected at the first mass resurrection. The only everlasting body is a spiritual body. If all are resurrected, but only some to everlasting life, then the others not awakened to everlasting life are awakened to another human physical life. This group will be much larger that the group of Christians resurrected at the first resurrection. The "many" which take the wide road to destruction versus the "few" which take the strait and narrow path to life.

So there are two resurrections for mankind. Those resurrected to everlasting life are now part of the Kingdom of God. Physical bodies are part of the earthly animal kingdom. Jesus was still on the earth when resurrected, and the earth is not now part of the Kingdom of God. So He was resurrected as a physical body into a physical world. But this did provide an example for the majority of mankind, as the majority of mankind will be resurrected at the second resurrection as humans. Jesus then provided the model for the "rebirth" of Christians living at the Second Coming by being changed and ascending into the air.

===============================================================================

This issue over "born again" seems to be the primary disconnect we are having.

Water baptism is a sacrament; an outward show to mankind that we are proud to be Christians. We definitely agree that it is not required for salvation.

Real quickly on born again: There are two worlds, the physical and the spiritual, and man must be born into both in that order to gain everlasting life. Men and women born into the physical world but not the spiritual, suffer the second death described in Revelation and never live again. Those born the second time, or born again, into the spiritual world gain everlasting life. Being born again is a real event, not simply some emotion.

This posting is already long. Let me point you to a document I wrote previously entitled Being Born Again

Let me know if that article is not sufficient to describe my beliefs!

God Bless and have a great day!

[InTheFlesh]

The bible is pretty clear about reincarnation.

"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"

[myth-one.com]

Hello InTheFlesh,

The bible is pretty clear about reincarnation.

"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"

There were some God fearing people who lived during Old Testament times, but they all sinned. Since Jesus had not as yet died for their sins, what happened to Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, Solomon, David, and others? They are presently dead and buried:

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

There will be two resurrections for humans:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The resurrection which we now await is that for all dead Christians (they that are Christ's), which shall be resurrected to everlasting spiritual life at the Second Coming or "at his coming." This resurrection is described in Revelation 20:4-5, which ends with , "This is the first resurrection." Those resurrected at this first resurrection will spend the millennium with Jesus, then all nonbelievers will be resurrected as mortals at the second resurrection:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...

All Christians were resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected as flesh and blood human beings at this second resurrection. This includes Job, as he died before Jesus ever lived as a human. That is, he sinned but had no Savior from the penalty of sin because Jesus had not as yet been crucified. Job will learn about and probably accept Jesus as his Savior and be born again into the Kingdom of God as a spiritual body which lives forever after his resurrection.

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

So Job, David, Solomon, Moses, and Abraham will be there at the second resurrection with Hitler, infants, others who died before Jesus paid for their sins, as well as the billions who never even heard the name Jesus. They will learn about and possibly accept Jesus as their Savior at that time. Job understood this:

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

And yes, he will be resurrected as flesh and blood and see God. He will learn of and accept or reject Jesus as his Savior, then either be born again into everlasting life or cast into the lake of fire and quickly perish as he is flesh and blood. Those cast into hell will die within seconds.

[joer]

Here's another story. Enjoy!

189:2 THE MATERIAL BODY OF JESUS

189:2.1 At ten minutes past three o'clock, as the resurrected Jesus fraternized with the assembled morontia personalities from the seven mansion worlds of Satania, the chief of archangels—the angels of the resurrection—approached Gabriel and asked for the mortal body of Jesus. Said the chief of the archangels: " We may not participate in the morontia resurrection of the bestowal experience of Michael our sovereign, but we would have his mortal remains put in our custody for immediate dissolution. We do not propose to employ our technique of dematerialization; we merely wish to invoke the process of accelerated time. It is enough that we have seen the Sovereign live and die on Urantia; the hosts of heaven would be spared the memory of enduring the sight of the slow decay of the human form of the Creator and Upholder of a universe. In the name of the celestial intelligences of all Nebadon, I ask for a mandate giving me the custody of the mortal body of Jesus of Nazareth and empowering us to proceed with its immediate dissolution. "

189:2.2 And when Gabriel had conferred with the senior Most High of Edentia, the archangel spokesman for the celestial hosts was given permission to make such disposition of the physical remains of Jesus as he might determine.

189:2.3 After the chief of archangels had been granted this request, he summoned to his assistance many of his fellows, together with a numerous host of the representatives of all orders of celestial personalities, and then, with the aid of the Urantia midwayers, proceeded to take possession of Jesus' physical body. This body of death was a purely material creation; it was physical and literal; it could not be removed from the tomb as the morontia form of the resurrection had been able to escape the sealed sepulchre. By the aid of certain morontia auxiliary personalities, the morontia form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm.

189:2.4 As they made ready to remove the body of Jesus from the tomb preparatory to according it the dignified and reverent disposal of near-instantaneous dissolution, it was assigned the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb. The larger of these two stones was a huge circular affair, much like a millstone, and it moved in a groove chiseled out of the rock, so that it could be rolled back and forth to open or close the tomb. When the watching Jewish guards and the Roman soldiers, in the dim light of the morning, saw this huge stone begin to roll away from the entrance of the tomb, apparently of its own accord—without any visible means to account for such motion—they were seized with fear and panic, and they fled in haste from the scene. The Jews fled to their homes, afterward going back to report these doings to their captain at the temple. The Romans fled to the fortress of Antonia and reported what they had seen to the centurion as soon as he arrived on duty.

189:2.5 The Jewish leaders began the sordid business of supposedly getting rid of Jesus by offering bribes to the traitorous Judas, and now, when confronted with this embarrassing situation, instead of thinking of punishing the guards who deserted their post, they resorted to bribing these guards and the Roman soldiers. They paid each of these twenty men a sum of money and instructed them to say to all: " While we slept during the nighttime, his disciples came upon us and took away the body. " And the Jewish leaders made solemn promises to the soldiers to defend them before Pilate in case it should ever come to the governor's knowledge that they had accepted a bribe.

189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the " empty tomb. " It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

189:2.7 The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the " dust to dust, " without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.

189:2.9 The true evidences of the resurrection of Michael are spiritual in nature, albeit this teaching is corroborated by the testimony of many mortals of the realm who met, recognized, and communed with the resurrected morontia Master. He became a part of the personal experience of almost one thousand human beings before he finally took leave of Urantia.

Biblical references
189:02.04 Impact on guards Matthew 28:11 (Same) "Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done."

189:02.04 Stone rolled away Matthew 28:2-4 (Same) "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men."

189:02.05 Bribing the guards Matthew 28:12-15 (Same) "And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day."

189:02.07 The empty tomb John 20:3-8 (Same) "Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed."

189:02.07 The empty tomb Luke 24:3 (Same) "And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus."

189:02.07 The empty tomb Mark 16:6 (Same) "And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him."

189:02.07 The empty tomb Matthew 28:6 (Same) "He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.
Come, see the place where the Lord lay."