Muslims worship Muhammad…

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Muslims worship Muhammad…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua‘ in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua‘, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God’s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don’t let the title fool you — he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre–history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally–accepted views on Islamic ‘history’):
While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.


I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well–written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses:
Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped… The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ‘blasphemy’ — surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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Post #41

Post by Truth_Teller »

goat wrote:
Truth_Teller wrote: As far as hadith (narrative) is concerned; hadith were compiled over a period of 200 years after the death of the Holy Prophet. Thousands of hadith were fabricated and many words were even added to some authentic hadith. Many senseless Muslims believe in this. However, I don´t since I have my common-sense to use rather than looking at the hadith. And also, my explanation was much more evidence-based on her age.
I will accept that there is a lot of corruption in the commentaries.

Since you say that 'many senseless Muslims' believe this, what do you suggest
would be the best course of action to bring them in line with a good understanding?

The way Sharia law is practiced , and the things that you probably call 'senseless' makes Islam look very unappealing to me. Do you see a way to bring about better balance into how it is being practiced?
Hmmm....... I think the better way to practice is by looking at the Qur´an and seek its help rather than search through narratives etc which may mislead you. Islam is much more peaceful and forgiving religion than some Mullahs make it look like.

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Post #42

Post by Truth_Teller »

As for worshipping, well if Qur´anic verses can´t satisfy you then let me give you a logical example.

The way we love our Prophet and call him The Greatest and Holiest person doesn´t mean that we worship him. We even consider Qur´an to be The Greatest and Holiest book, does that mean that we worship Qur´an also? Even Christians believe The Bible as to be The Greatest and Holiest book ever, does that mean that they worship Bible? (leave aside that they believe Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as to be The Son of God).

To you your dad might be the greatest dad in the world and perhaps the greatest person, does that mean you worship him????

It´s just our passion, love and respect towards out Prophet nothing else like worshipping etc which is strictly forbidden.
O People! See the difference between Mullah-ism and Islam. They both are two opposite things.

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Post #43

Post by Goat »

Truth_Teller wrote:As for worshipping, well if Qur´anic verses can´t satisfy you then let me give you a logical example.

The way we love our Prophet and call him The Greatest and Holiest person doesn´t mean that we worship him. We even consider Qur´an to be The Greatest and Holiest book, does that mean that we worship Qur´an also? Even Christians believe The Bible as to be The Greatest and Holiest book ever, does that mean that they worship Bible? (leave aside that they believe Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as to be The Son of God).

To you your dad might be the greatest dad in the world and perhaps the greatest person, does that mean you worship him????

It´s just our passion, love and respect towards out Prophet nothing else like worshipping etc which is strictly forbidden.

Well, honestly, the way that some Christians approach the bible, I DO thing it is worshiping an idol. So yes, I see that as very similar.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #44

Post by OnceConvinced »

Truth_Teller wrote:
goat wrote: And, what you describe, 'the perfect Muslim', etc etc etc, sounds like worship to me. Maybe not in the same sense of 'divine', but IMO, putting him on a pedestal much higher than any man should be put. Look at how you describe him. 'Holiest and Greatest' That sounds like worship to me. However, to me, that is irrelevant.
That´s our love and passion for him. If you really think that it´s worship then I help it since people of other religion themselves worship great persons (who we believe were prophets). Considering him to be the Holiest and Greatest doesn´t qualify for worshipping I guess.
This sounds like worship to me. I could understand if the guy was still alive, but he is dead. Not only that, but he died long before you were born. So therefore any love or passion for him is worship. Acknowledging someone who is dead and buried as the holiest and greatest IS worship. Worship is more than just bowing down and praying and uttering praises.

Even Christians believe The Bible as to be The Greatest and Holiest book ever, does that mean that they worship Bible?
I don't think you can compare an inanimate object to a human being.

But regardless, many would say that anything you devote your time to is worship - it is your God. So if you spend a lot of time in front of the TV set, that is your God. Spend a lot of time reading the bible? Well yeah, maybe it is your God (as Goat has suggested), but then again, most Christians read the bible because they believe it teaches them about the God they worship.
To you your dad might be the greatest dad in the world and perhaps the greatest person, does that mean you worship him????
Well if I did, which I don't, it would be completely different. At least your dad was alive (or is alive) and was in your life. Mohammed is a dead man who you never even met. Completely different thing.
It´s just our passion, love and respect towards out Prophet nothing else like worshipping etc which is strictly forbidden.
This is considered worship by many. This is what Christians have for Christ and they see it as (or at least display it through) worship. How do you show your passion and love and respect towards Mohammed? Do you do any of this outwardly? If not, then how can you claim to have passion, love and respect for Mohammed? These things require actions, not just words. Actions can be deemed as worship.

How do people show their love, passion and respect for a dead person? Do good deeds in their name? Pass their teachings onto others? Promote them as great and wonderful people to others? Write about their great conquests? Follow their teachings? Emulate their ways?. Do you do any of those? If so, then you are worshiping that person.

I see it in churches all the time. The people putting their pastor or a guest speaker up on a pedistal. It's one of the things that used to annoy me when I was a Christian and still does when I see certain evangelists being treated and revered like they're Jesus. It's all a form of hero worship.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


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Post #45

Post by Truth_Teller »

OnceConvinced wrote:This sounds like worship to me. I could understand if the guy was still alive, but he is dead. Not only that, but he died long before you were born. So therefore any love or passion for him is worship. Acknowledging someone who is dead and buried as the holiest and greatest IS worship. Worship is more than just bowing down and praying and uttering praises.
It´s not must for you to meet the person.
OnceConvinced wrote:I don't think you can compare an inanimate object to a human being.
No. I´m comparing a Holy object to a Holy human-being. It´s one and the same.
OnceConvinced wrote:Well if I did, which I don't, it would be completely different. At least your dad was alive (or is alive) and was in your life. Mohammed is a dead man who you never even met. Completely different thing.
So dead persons can´t be considered great or what???? That´s a ridiculous logic, to be honest. There historical freedom-fighters, sportsmen, even Prophets who were dead long, long back but are still considered greats and are held in a very high regard.
OnceConvinced wrote:This is considered worship by many. This is what Christians have for Christ and they see it as (or at least display it through) worship. How do you show your passion and love and respect towards Mohammed? Do you do any of this outwardly? If not, then how can you claim to have passion, love and respect for Mohammed? These things require actions, not just words. Actions can be deemed as worship.
Many might consider this worship but they all must be head-less.
OnceConvinced wrote:How do people show their love, passion and respect for a dead person? Do good deeds in their name? Pass their teachings onto others? Promote them as great and wonderful people to others? Write about their great conquests? Follow their teachings? Emulate their ways?. Do you do any of those? If so, then you are worshiping that person.
That´s called "Following someone´s path and spreading his teaching." Nothing else!!!
O People! See the difference between Mullah-ism and Islam. They both are two opposite things.

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Post #46

Post by carolineislands »

CAIR sent me a great copy of the Quran - its HUGE. I keep it in the bathroom and draw pictures of Muhammad in it while I'm on the pot.

Is that okay?

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Post #47

Post by carolineislands »

It has been proven over and over again that Aisha was 6 when Muhammad married her and 9 when he had intercourse with her. But here are some of the Hadith that prove it.
A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Muslim 8. 3310

Narrated 'Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Bukhari 7. 62. 64

Narrated 'Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Bukhari 7. 62. 65

Narrated 'Ursa:The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari 7. 62. 88
Aisha herself talks about the day her mother came and took her by the hand and took her to the prophet's house (for the consummation of the "marriage") - she had no idea what was happening:
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Bukhari 5.234
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon. Bukhari 7. 62. 90
Muslims seem to have 3 ways of defending this atrocity.
1. Excuse it on the grounds that it was the custom in that day and age.
2. Excuse in on the supposition that a child who has her first menses is an adult due to the fact that she is capable of becoming pregnant.
3. Deny it by trying to say Aisha was older even though everybody knows better

The first excuse is invalid because of the fact that Muslims still emulate Muhammad and that is the reason it is still legal in Islam for a child to be taken in marraige at 9 years old or as soon as she has her first menses. The second excuse is ludicrous due to the fact that children who have their first menses are NOT prepared for having children as evidenced by the damage it does to their bodies. Child brides are rampant in Islam and so is the horrible problems it causes when they have babies. Obstetric fistula is just one of the things that happen. Many die in childbirth and many others are rendered infertile due to the damage incurred when a 9 year old child is penetrated by and adult penis, which might have been the case with Aisha - she never had any children did she? The third excuse is obvious denial of facts that are well supported by Islamic texts and Islamic law.

Now, can we continue with the discussion?

I gave clear evidence that Muslims worship Muhammad in the post that listed the definition of worship with evidence correlating to each definition. Do you have any proof that the evidence given was not true?

Its not a matter of whether or not a muslim thinks that chanting about a person over and over again several times a day, reciting his words, emulating every last minute detail of his actions, etc is worship or not. The definition states that these kinds of things ARE worship. Whether or not muslims were told not to do it doesn't matter either. The fact is, they DO.

Of course the person doing it is not going to admit to this - and that in itself is very strong evidence that they are not only worshiping, but worshiping blindly, which also defines idolatry.
Last edited by carolineislands on Wed May 14, 2008 8:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Post #48

Post by carolineislands »

Truth_Teller wrote:... That´s a ridiculous logic,. ...
theyy might consider this worship but they all must be head-less. .

This is another thing we've all noticed about Islam apologists - it sure doesn't take them long to drop the discussion and start hurling insults.

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Post #49

Post by OnceConvinced »

Truth_Teller wrote:It´s not must for you to meet the person.
No, indeed not, you could also worship a person who is alive. We call that hero worship. It normally goes along the lines of people wanting to be like them. ie. dressing like them, doing the things they like to do, modelling their lives on them, taking to heart the things they say, hanging posters of them up on their walls, screaming and going crazy when they see them in real life.

I wonder if you met Mohammed for real, how you would act if you saw him? Probably much in the way any crazed fan would when they meet their idol.
Truth_Teller wrote: No. I´m comparing a Holy object to a Holy human-being. It´s one and the same.
An object and a human being are two entirely different things. It makes no difference whether they are holy or not, unless your a buddhist or one of those types of religions.
Truth_Teller wrote: So dead persons can´t be considered great or what???? That´s a ridiculous logic, to be honest. There historical freedom-fighters, sportsmen, even Prophets who were dead long, long back but are still considered greats and are held in a very high regard.
You are deliberately misrepresenting me. At no point did I ever say dead people can't be considered great. How on earth did you come to that conclusion based on what I said. Getting that from what I said is the "ridiculous logic".
Truth_Teller wrote: Many might consider this worship but they all must be head-less.
No, they just have a different opinion to you.
Truth_Teller wrote: That´s called "Following someone´s path and spreading his teaching." Nothing else!!!
No. Emulating is copying everything they do. It's not just folliwing a path and spreading the teachings.

You still haven't answered the other questions:

How do you show your passion and love and respect towards Mohammed? Do you do any of this outwardly?

How do people show their love, passion and respect for a dead person? Do good deeds in their name? Pass their teachings onto others? Promote them as great and wonderful people to others? Write about their great conquests? Follow their teachings? [strike]Emulate their ways?[/strike]. Do you do any of those?

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Post #50

Post by Truth_Teller »

OnceConvinced wrote: How do you show your passion and love and respect towards Mohammed? Do you do any of this outwardly?

How do people show their love, passion and respect for a dead person? Do good deeds in their name? Pass their teachings onto others? Promote them as great and wonderful people to others? Write about their great conquests? Follow their teachings? [strike]Emulate their ways?[/strike]. Do you do any of those?
I try to do good deeds because he taught us to do, I try to pass his teachings to others because, to me, his teachings were the greatest, I try to promote him as a great and wonderful person, I follow his teachings because he taught us to the perfect ones, I try to emulate his way of life. I try my level best to do all these. I don´t worship him but hold him very dearly since we believe he was The Messenger of God´s direct words.
O People! See the difference between Mullah-ism and Islam. They both are two opposite things.

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