Is a"personal God" viable?

[Dilettante]

I have encountered several people who claim to have a personal relationship with God. The problem is that the very same people also believe that God is an infinite, perfect being, infinitely superior to humans. Still, they say they talk to God as if to a friend. I have often wondered how this is possible. There is an equality between human persons that is clearly lacking in the God-human relationship. Besides, the Christian God (for example) is not just a non-human person, but reportedly three. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the kind of relationship these people can have with God, if any, is rather like the relationship I have with my dog, or perhaps my goldfish? Isn't God on a totally different level?

[Dilettante]

asajoseph wrote:

Because Jesus (fully man, yet fully God) certainly wasn't infinite. So, if we're talking about God the father, what sense are we talking about when we say 'infinite'?

So perhaps the only people who could claim a personal relationship with God were Jesus' friends(?). That seems more logical.

Zarathustra wrote:

I understand that the pet analogy isn't exactly the best one...perhaps I should have chosen something a bit more suitable.

Actually it works fine... for my argument, because of the difference in "kind of being" between animals and humans. It illustrates the immeasurable gap between humans and God, which was, according to the NT, bridged by Jesus. But then, as I said before, one can no longer meet Jesus in the flesh.

[eveil42]

i do not worship my cat. sorry!
eveil_grl

[eveil42]

i do not worship my cat. sorry!
eveil_grl

[Dilettante]

eveil42 wrote:

i do not worship my cat. sorry!
eveil_grl

In this analogy, it would be your cat worshipping you, not the other way around. Anyway, the analogy was not focused on worshipping but on the different level of being. A Perfect Being would be so superior to us that it is hard to imagine how we could have a personal relationship with him/her.

On the other hand, and since you mention your cat, there have been many religions in which animal statues were worshipped (the Ancient Egyptian religion, for instance). Totemic animals were worshipped from time immemorial, and there is a theory that religion developed out of our relationship with animals. I'll try to read about that if I have some free time and maybe I'll be able to explain more about this theory:study:

[Bro Dave]

The idea of building a bridge between from the Infinite to the finite, is the story of the universe and its many levels of administration. That is why Jesus came to this backwards little planet; To show us God in every way we are capable of understanding Him.
The journey to perfection is long, but in the end, we will finally attain God as a direct personal experience.

Bro Dave

[Mattu]

Dilettante, have you ever personally tried to have a relationship with God? It isn't so much as a relationship I have with my girlfriend in the sense that we talk and chat and discuss things. I personally have never heard God, and I believe no one does, at least on this Earth. If nothing else, I would believe His voice too pure to be heard by our sinful ears. Just a metaphor really...

Back on track though, some personal experiences I know I have are just times when I pray for a certain thing, and it is clearly fulfilled. You can call it chance the first few times, but once things start to go the way you pray, you wonder and come to the conclusion that He is listening to you, which defines a relationship. (Just quickly, I do not believe all prayers SHOULD be answered, obviously, and I assume the prayers you pray will be truthful to God's will. Personally I always attach a "if it is your will" onto my prayers. I do not mean to boss the very God who created me and gave me life, that's for sure)

Other ways I see my relationship with Him, are times when I can be absolutely calmed down in the middle of a very stressful situation after asking Him to calm my worries or something of the sort. One final thing as well, is imagery, and work through other humans. I know there are times when I will be going through difficult struggles in my life, and I find an answer through another member of my church or something that happens in my day, and it's like God saying, "Here is your solution". It's quite amazing, and I suggest if you haven't given God a shot to be close to you and ask Him to come into your heart and guide your life, why not? You honestly have nothing to lose.

[Dilettante]

The idea of building a bridge between from the Infinite to the finite, is the story of the universe and its many levels of administration. That is why Jesus came to this backwards little planet; To show us God in every way we are capable of understanding Him.
The journey to perfection is long, but in the end, we will finally attain God as a direct personal experience.

Bro Dave

And how can that bridge be built? What do you mean by the universe's "many levels of administration"? That sounds like something out of a science-fiction novel. Can you support your assertions with arguments or evidence or is it just a hunch?

Mattu wrote:

Dilettante, have you ever personally tried to have a relationship with God?

Well, I remember saying prayers when I was a kid, and asking God for things, but I also remember having this nagging feeling that I was only talking to myself.

It isn't so much as a relationship I have with my girlfriend in the sense that we talk and chat and discuss things. I personally have never heard God, and I believe no one does, at least on this Earth. If nothing else, I would believe His voice too pure to be heard by our sinful ears. Just a metaphor really...

Exactly. And I suspect it works the other way too: if God is a perfect being, I don't see how or why He would bother with imperfect beings such as us humans.

Back on track though, some personal experiences I know I have are just times when I pray for a certain thing, and it is clearly fulfilled. You can call it chance the first few times, but once things start to go the way you pray, you wonder and come to the conclusion that He is listening to you, which defines a relationship.

Maybe you're right, but scientific research in the field has, so far, not shown any correlation between prayers and answers by God. The famous Columbia University prayer study turned out to be a fraud (see Skeptical Inquirer, September/October 2004 http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/miracle-study.html )
Of course, that doesn't mean that future research can't prove me wrong. And as you say, your case may be different and not explainable by chance. I can't decide because I don't have enough information.

Other ways I see my relationship with Him, are times when I can be absolutely calmed down in the middle of a very stressful situation after asking Him to calm my worries or something of the sort. One final thing as well, is imagery, and work through other humans. I know there are times when I will be going through difficult struggles in my life, and I find an answer through another member of my church or something that happens in my day, and it's like God saying, "Here is your solution". It's quite amazing, and I suggest if you haven't given God a shot to be close to you and ask Him to come into your heart and guide your life, why not? You honestly have nothing to lose.

I am by nature a pretty calm person, even in stressful situations (unfortunately, including cases in which it would help me to be a little nervous). I can't understand how an infinite God could direct his attention to something as small and short-lived as me, a creature who in the grand scale of the universe amounts to less than a speck of dust. It would be wonderful to be so important to God, but how do I know it's not just wishful thinking?
People all over the world have all sorts of beliefs about God. Most are convinced that their particular beliefs are correct and the rest are wrong. This is because their beliefs are really rooted in emotion rather than reason. We've all known people who believe a certain person loves them, when we know that they're just using them. But nothing we could say would persuade them that they're wrong because it's an emotional belief. How do I know it's not the same with religion? All religions can't be correct: some must be more correct than others. Some, perhaps most (or even all) have to be simply wrong.
I guess my point is, if, as you said, a "personal relationship" with God is not the same as a personal relationship with a human person, what kind of a relationship is it? Is God a non-human person? Is it like the relationship between humans and animals (pets for example)?

[Mattu]

It depends on your theological outlook of animals in relation to God I suppose. I for one believe God has a way or using animals in our lives for different reasons, but I do not fully believe we hold a relationship with them like we would with the creator of all things. Also, remember God transcends space and time. He is everywhere and in all time, at once. Something infinitely small has the same importance to him as something infinitely big, as each and every one of those things is measured outside of the time in which they exist. Also, you only exist here for what seems like a spec of dust, yet your soul is eternal if you are with God, because he Himself is eternal.

EDIT: Forgot to talk about prayer.

It basically comes down to science being able to measure something not of this realm. In order to measure or examine something not within our own realm, we must first off be able to use tools outside of our realm and obtain knowledge that doesn't exist as far as our "reality" is concerned. Scientists will never be able to measure or examine the power of God, because God Himself created science, and it would be difficult to measure or examine Himself unless you are indeed Him.

[Dilettante]

I don't know where animals fit in theology, but in the past humans ascribed a supernatural or divine character to animals (such as totemic animals). From this fact it has been suggested that our idea of God or gods developed out of our ancestors' ideas of animals. But that's a different story. Anyway, my point was not that we hold a relationship with God which is similar to our relationship with animals, but that our relationship with God would have to be compared to the relationship between a pet and its owner (where we are pets and God is owner). The idea is that, if a "personal relationship" is one between people (i.e., equals), our relationship with God cannot really be called "personal".

I find it extremely difficult to reconcile the idea of God outside space-time with the idea of God intervening in temporal affairs and the idea of human free will. The idea of time presupposes the idea of change. The concept of an unchanging God seems to contradict the idea that God might become angry at us and then forgive us. It also seems paradoxical to say that everything is of equal importance to God, because the very idea of "important" (as opposed to "unimportant" or "less important") implies having priorities.

I know I am not eternal because I had a definite beginning (about 40 years ago) and will sooner or later have an end (hopefully later rather than sooner). Since I do not believe in the pre-existence of souls (à la Plato) and I don't see how a disembodied soul could exist, I feel justified in believing I'm not eternal. I can certainly hope that God can somehow "make" me eternal after my physical existence is over, but I have no way of knowing whether this is possible or not.

I agree: science can only deal with the physical. The metaphysical is by definition beyond the reach of science. But here lies the problem: is "metaphysical knowledge" possible? To examine or describe God, science would need tools which are beyond our realm, as you said. Our current tools are wholly inadequate. But the main tool we use to describe God is human language. And if human language is so inadequate, perhaps anything we say about God is inherently erroneous and we should remain silent on the subject.

[Mattu]

None of us can understand time, eternity, life outside of physical bodie sor anything. But you know what, there are hundreds if not thousands account sof near death experiences with accurate explanations of things people saw when they were not in their bodies. Even outside of that, people claim to be able to trancende space and time through meditation and such which I believe would be your soul.

It's almost to the point where it can be proven, but not quite. Anyways, I definatly hope Gob blesses you and shows you that there is indeed that life after death. It's not even that we just hope it's there, it's that we can feel it in our souls, we know it, but it's just hard to understand being in the world we are. A little child who has no conept of this world could easily accept such a place because they are so unaccustom to this world and how it works. It's always hard change everything you know, and accept that it's not always the way it seems.