Are the sign-gifts for today?

[AV1611]

Do you think that the gifts of tongues, healing and miracles are for today? What scripture do you use to support your position?

[nikolayevich]

Could you clarify the question?

By "for today" do you mean, are they happening today, or are you asking if they are important?

[adherent]

I think they appear on a very small magnitutde and occurence level.

If your asking whether they benefit today, I'd say no. Already many false prophets and such have risen, miracles would add to the mahem. True christians should brace themselves for the future, We have the Bible and one awesome God to back us. And we should stick together, strength in unity.

[Amadeus]

They seem to occur more in third world countries (the missionaries or villagers could be lying, but probably not). I find that intriguing.

[asajoseph]

They seem to occur more in third world countries (the missionaries or villagers could be lying, but probably not). I find that intriguing.

My personal experience has been that they occur in places where people are open to them. This often means that in countries where no 'Enlightenment' (and by this I mean specifically a movement similar to the European movement of the 18th-19th centuries) has taken place, people are more open to the existence of the supernatural, and miracles and supernatural behaviour do not seem so incredible to them, and the skepticism that exists in the west is not present.

I've never encountered a cessationist whose arguments I have found remotely convincing. Perhaps someone who does hold this view would like to present it?

Asa

[nikolayevich]

My personal experience has been that they occur in places where people are open to them.
This often means that in countries where no 'Enlightenment' (and by this I mean specifically a movement similar to the European movement of the 18th-19th centuries) has taken place, people are more open to the existence of the supernatural, and miracles and supernatural behaviour do not seem so incredible to them, and the skepticism that exists in the west is not present.

I think it would be more accurate to say God moves where faith is strong, with whomever, whatever the place or time.

Many, many people in the west are open to the supernatural, but the God of the Bible is often rejected. In the "missionary" countries, such as China, there is an almost incredible movement within Christianity to serve God and share the gospel because of persecution and in it, they are galvanized to a stronger faith. It may be right to say these places have not had a similar experience to the European enlightenment, but I don't think that is the reason.

In answer to the initial question, I do think we have to be careful in teaching about signs and wonders, especially as they pertain to us performing them. Many churches seek the miracle experience above the work of God in their lives and in the lives of others through them. It is at times tried to "prove" God by miracle. The problem is that most people are not convinced by even mighty things. How many have said, "God, if you do [this thing] I will believe in you", but whom, even for that favor would not believe?

Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all [men] will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. (John 11:47-8 )

Jesus' miracles had a purpose, but:
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. (John 6:26)

They believed because a void was filled and lives fulfilled. It is not common miracles (healings etc) upon which the faith rests. And let's not forget that even the pharaoh's men performed signs for him... It is reunion with Him which satisfies.

There is one event upon which Christianity hinges:
The miracle/sign/wonder of the prophecy and fulfillment of the crucifixion (atonement) and resurrection (to life everlasting) is the miracle/sign/wonder upon which the gospels pitch. This is what is key for us to present. Signs and wonders will happen as they do, but they are corollary to what has already been accomplished. The resurrection establishes Jesus' power over death, the last enemy (1 Corinthians 15:26).

Most believers have experienced some kind of miracles, and there is a place for those too. Many a testimony has gripped us for its clear supernaturality as God's hand was clearly seen. But how often when we debate does a "this miracle happened to me" convince someone who does not believe already? So there is a time and a place for miracles and appeals to them.

[hannahjoy]

Amadeus wrote:

They seem to occur more in third world countries (the missionaries or villagers could be lying, but probably not). I find that intriguing.

From what I hear, demon possession is also more common in those countries, particularily the more isolated people groups. Maybe the miracles are intended to counteract that. Here Satan seems to work in more subtle ways.