Can science really disprove somethings existence?

[achilles12604]

Usually the argument goes something like this . . .

Theist: God exists.

Science: How do you know?

Theist: 1) origin of the universe, biblical history, personal experience, origin of life, etc

Science: And how do you know that the universe didn't just pop into being without God. Your personal experience doesn't count as evidence, and history can be wrong.

Theist: Well what makes you think God doesn't exist.

science: I am totally unable to detect any sign of him at all and science is the best method we have for detecting and studying things in the universe.

You don't need to answer. My point is very simply that bible thumpers and science thumpers sometimes have similar issues regarding their claims of total knowledge. Neither can truly get the whole picture alone.

But what picture is this? Lets say there is more to this world than science knows. How do we know this? What methodology do we deploy? And the point I’ve been banging on about over several threads the last few days is the only correct method for addressing reality is naturalism because only naturalism can meet the full set of criteria: prediction, verification, falsification and assigns a clear definition to all the signs it deploys in its answers. Any explanation that fails to meet this benchmark is intellectually vacuous. Regardless of the depth of conviction of any given non naturalistic belief.

However I detect that this point is not lost on you achilles because you make great attempts to rationalise your belief system, and I know you think that what is supernatural is only what science does not yet understand. That is easy for a full blown naturalist to admit. What we cannot admit is that the theist can fill in the gaps.

I guess this is where some degree of theistic faith comes in. Hey that gives me a thought. Is faith provable by science? For example, would science be able to determine someone's beliefs? If science is unable to determine someone's beliefs and faith, does that mean that the person's faith does not exist?

My questions for discussion.

Is science able to determine someone's beliefs without being told? Another possible question to clarify this point is can science prove that someone who is now dead, had beliefs while alive?

If silence is maintained and a person's beliefs can not be determined, does this mean the beliefs do not exist?

[muhammad rasullah]

I think some posters are wasting their time. There is too much distance between minds participating on this thread. Is Rasullah a devil's advocate?

Talk about wasting there time that's the most ridiculous post I've seen so far? I you would've took the time to read you would see where my position stands on every topic and it's not and advocate for the devil. I believe with someone of little or no faith that question should be directed towards you. What the devil does is use the opposite of what Allah wants for us with is Islam and mislead us into believing things like theories which go unproven as truth when really they are false. Allah tells us in the Quran, 4:120 SATAN makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but SATAN's promises are nothing but deception.
And when you are called to account on the day of judgement Shaytan will say, 14:22 And SATAN will say when the matter is decided: "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth: I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me: then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls....

[MrWhy]

I think some posters are wasting their time. There is too much distance between minds participating on this thread. Is Rasullah a devil's advocate?

Talk about wasting there time that's the most ridiculous post I've seen so far? I you would've took the time to read you would see where my position stands on every topic and it's not and advocate for the devil. I believe with someone of little or no faith that question should be directed towards you. What the devil does is use the opposite of what Allah wants for us with is Islam and mislead us into believing things like theories which go unproven as truth when really they are false. Allah tells us in the Quran, 4:120 SATAN makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but SATAN's promises are nothing but deception.
And when you are called to account on the day of judgement Shaytan will say, 14:22 And SATAN will say when the matter is decided: "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth: I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me: then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls....

Sorry, should not have used such a culture centric phrase. "devils advocate" is someone who argues a certain position, even if they don't believe it, just to perpetuate/continue an argument. It has nothing to do with a devil myth. Occasonally I suspect someone of starting a thread just to create forum traffic. Maybe not in your case, but how do we know if a posters position is authentic? Especially when it seems impossible to communicate a specific idea.

The other point is about position distance. It appears that there is so much separation in opposing views, or way of thinking, that no argument is going to cause even a small doubt in opinion. Therefore a waste of time unless you just want to post.

[MrWhy]

In short, a perfect system is at work high above the Earth. It surrounds our world and protects it against external threats. Centuries ago, Allah informed us in the Qur'an of the world's atmosphere functioning as a protective shield.

Protects from external threats except UV rays that cause cancer, and asteroids that cause large scale destruction, and changes in solar radiation that cause extreme disruptive climate change. Perfect except for the regular natural disasters that destroy so much. Perfect except for multiple mass extinctions that have occurred.

There is clear evidence of hits by large asteroids every few thousand years. Many animals have to kill and devour each other to survive. Humans seem to have been engaged in killing and wars for as long as they have existed. We live on a planet that is stable in only certain places and those are not permanent. In general the universe is very hostile to life. It is far from perfect.

To say that the earth was designed for life is like shooting an arrow in the air and drawing a target around where it lands. Earth has not been perfectly designed for life. Instead, various forms of life have managed, for short periods, to adapt to the conditions that exist.

This is another example of a desperate search for divine activity where none exists.

[byofrcs]

I think some posters are wasting their time. There is too much distance between minds participating on this thread. Is Rasullah a devil's advocate?

Talk about wasting there time that's the most ridiculous post I've seen so far? I you would've took the time to read you would see where my position stands on every topic and it's not and advocate for the devil. I believe with someone of little or no faith that question should be directed towards you. What the devil does is use the opposite of what Allah wants for us with is Islam and mislead us into believing things like theories which go unproven as truth when really they are false. Allah tells us in the Quran, 4:120 SATAN makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but SATAN's promises are nothing but deception.
And when you are called to account on the day of judgement Shaytan will say, 14:22 And SATAN will say when the matter is decided: "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth: I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me: then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls....

Sorry, should not have used such a culture centric phrase. "devils advocate" is someone who argues a certain position, even if they don't believe it, just to perpetuate/continue an argument. It has nothing to do with a devil myth. Occasonally I suspect someone of starting a thread just to create forum traffic. Maybe not in your case, but how do we know if a posters position is authentic? Especially when it seems impossible to communicate a specific idea.

The other point is about position distance. It appears that there is so much separation in opposing views, or way of thinking, that no argument is going to cause even a small doubt in opinion. Therefore a waste of time unless you just want to post.

...but it's not what they say but what they avoid replying too. That they start arguing who said what i.e. attacking the messenger rather than staying on the subject and when they start repeating the question then that says that they now doubt some of their beliefs but their barriers are dropping into place to protect them from these new concepts.

Guy is probably reading the Quran as we speak to immunize themselves against our satanic words. I find Muslims much more predictable than Christians. Boringly so.

I can't wait for them to get a reformation.

Basically, "muhammad rasullah", if you are reading this, reply to my questions rather than repeating your own again. I told you why Humans have 46 chromosomes (down from 48 with fusing of #1 and #3) so can we move on to your other claims ?.

[muhammad rasullah]

What i want know is this. How did these languages develop from nothing if we were once ape like and they didn't speak language back then who taught them how to speak?

I'll wager that your enquiring mind will happily switch-off when it comes to certain things. I happen to think that the subject of things developing from nothing gets really interesting when it comes to God(s). My mind stays switched-on... I want to know who taught God how to construct universes. I bet that makes me an Infidel

BTW isn't it obvious that all animals communicate in some capacity? Even single cells send chemical signals to each other. Have a go at imagining how pointing and grunting could spark off a whole new language -- were we all to fall under a spell that robbed us of our current languages.

You can't have something from nothing.

My[/i] mind stays switched-on... I want to know who taught God how to construct universes. I bet that makes me an Infidel

Can you teach someone who is all-knowing?

BTW isn't it obvious that all animals communicate in some capacity? Even single cells send chemical signals to each other. Have a go at imagining how pointing and grunting could spark off a whole new language -- were we all to fall under a spell that robbed us of our current languages.

[/quote]

It is kind of hard to believe that languages evolved from grunting and pointing when language is a learned behavior for humans. If nowone ever spoke any language around a baby I don't think he would learn how to speak he'll just be pointing and grunting.

[Goat]

What i want know is this. How did these languages develop from nothing if we were once ape like and they didn't speak language back then who taught them how to speak?

I'll wager that your enquiring mind will happily switch-off when it comes to certain things. I happen to think that the subject of things developing from nothing gets really interesting when it comes to God(s). My mind stays switched-on... I want to know who taught God how to construct universes. I bet that makes me an Infidel

BTW isn't it obvious that all animals communicate in some capacity? Even single cells send chemical signals to each other. Have a go at imagining how pointing and grunting could spark off a whole new language -- were we all to fall under a spell that robbed us of our current languages.

You can't have something from nothing.

Where is there nothing? Everything is a little bit at a time. There never was 'nothing.'.. even the universe, according to cosmology, came from a singularity, which is not 'nothing'

[Beto]

It is kind of hard to believe that languages evolved from grunting and pointing when language is a learned behavior for humans. If nowone ever spoke any language around a baby I don't think he would learn how to speak he'll just be pointing and grunting.

Do you find it equally hard to believe that some animals have to teach their young how to hunt, by doing it?

[Cathar1950]

It is kind of hard to believe that languages evolved from grunting and pointing when language is a learned behavior for humans. If nowone ever spoke any language around a baby I don't think he would learn how to speak he'll just be pointing and grunting.

Do you find it equally hard to believe that some animals have to teach their young how to hunt, by doing it?

It also seem both language and culture and innate in human and the traces of this is found in some animals even if it is learned. We are wired for language and culture. We learn meaning but we may not have a choice but to acquire meaning.

[QED]

You can't have something from nothing.

Really? Are there any exceptions to this? What about God for example? And if God is thought to be some kind of eternal, necessary being -- why are we supposing it takes a "being" to create things? Hills and rainfall create rivers -- so why not posit eternal, necessary equivalents to "hills and rainfall"? Isn't it rather childish to suppose that it takes some sort of "big man in the sky" to magic even more stuff up from nothing?

Besides, here's a small selection of things that can be considered to be something from nothing:

1) Virtual particles (as evidenced by the Casimir Effect).
2) Spontaneous Symmetry breaking in QFT
3) When the whole is greater than the sum of its parts (subtract the parts and contemplate the magnitude of the remainder).

And in case it is felt that for time to have a beginning, there must be an insitgator for the event, the "no-boundary'' proposal of James Hartle and Stephen Hawking adjusts our perspective on time such that the apparent begininng of the universe stretches to eternity.

Can you teach someone who is all-knowing?

Who's that person supposed to be? If it's a "God" then why bother creating a world if it is known in every minute detail in advance how it will unfold? However, if it is populated by free-agents then God is not all-knowing -- in time God could come to learn that nobody believes in him any more

It is kind of hard to believe that languages evolved from grunting and pointing when language is a learned behavior for humans. If nowone ever spoke any language around a baby I don't think he would learn how to speak he'll just be pointing and grunting.

People with certain genetic defects have specific difficulties with speech and grammar. From this we can see that our capacity for language is inherited (if we didn't already expect such a thing). Given that efficient communicators were more likely to pass on their genes, we can expect positive physiological developments towards efficient communication in our genome.

[alexiarose]

People with certain genetic defects have specific difficulties with speech and grammar. From this we can see that our capacity for language is inherited (if we didn't already expect such a thing). Given that efficient communicators were more likely to pass on their genes, we can expect positive physiological developments towards efficient communication in our genome.

So, I won't even bother pretending I understood anything before this. But I have to disagree. Genetic defects contribute but don't have to be inherited. Moms CML is a genetic defect, but she didn't inherit it. My brothers problems have some suspected genetic link (though that is still debateable) and he didn't inherit it. My mom can't pronounce her R's or K's, but I can just fine. Genetics may play a role, but they aren't necessarily inherited. Just mutated.