Judaism vs Zionism

[carolineislands]

I have done a small bit of research on the difference between Judaism and Zionism and find that there is a growing group of Jewish people that reject Zionism completely. They say the State of Israel is committing atrocities in the name of God and Judaism and they are very passionate about informing the public that Judaism is NOT a part of Zionism.

I would like to know what all of you think -- especially the Jews in the room.

Thanks!

[cnorman18]

I have done a small bit of research on the difference between Judaism and Zionism and find that there is a growing group of Jewish people that reject Zionism completely. They say the State of Israel is committing atrocities in the name of God and Judaism and they are very passionate about informing the public that Judaism is NOT a part of Zionism.

I would like to know what all of you think -- especially the Jews in the room.

Thanks!

As far as I know or have seen, I am the only Jew in the room. I didn't come here to discuss Israel, for reasons I'll get into in a moment, but I'll give this a shot anyway.

The issue is a bit more complex than it might at first appear. Bear with me.

First, Zionism is properly defined as a belief that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish nation and to defend itself. No more, no less. Though attempts have been made to redefine Zionism as racist, colonialist, imperialist, oppressive, and so on, none of those are accurate or honest. Zionism means supporting the existence and defense of the Jewish state, and nothing more.

In that sense, Zionism is an integral part of Judaism and has been since the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. Prayers for a return to the Land, for the peace of Jerusalem, and the restoration of the Temple are included in virtually every Jewish religious service. The Passover ritual meal, the Seder, traditionally ends with the toast, "Next year in Jerusalem," and has since long before that was possible (in Jerusalem, the toast today is "Next year, here.").

Now; what makes the question complicated? Let's start with the "anti-Zionist" Jews you mentioned, Naturei Karta and a few others. First, they are not, by the definition given above, truly "anti-Zionist." They do not believe that Israel ought not exist; they believe that Israel ought not exist yet. and they are shrinking, not growing.

It was once (in the 19th century, at the beginning of Zionism) the position of virtually all Orthodox Jews that Israel could only be restored by the Messiah. If restored by a political movement and not by, essentially, a miracle, it would be illegitimate. Before and since the foundation of Israel in 1948, virtually all of them have changed their position and now support Israel passionately.

There are only a few holdouts left, Naturei Karta and a few others. Oddly, most of them live in Israel. Their prayers in services are the same as ours. Most Jews do not understand their position, and are deeply puzzled by it.

They are celebrated and adored--and, frankly, used--by Israel's enemies. A delegation of them was present at the recent "conference" on Holocaust denial in Iran, where they were literally embraced by Ahmadinejad himself--who of course is on the record as wanting to "wipe Israel off the map." They are frequently called "the real Jews" by antisemites and other Israel-haters, who of course have no interest in Judaism but only in the destruction of Israel. Don't believe everything you read from those sources, or from these groups themselves.

That there are Jews who oppose various policies of the Israeli government is quite another matter; that opposition does not mean that we (I am one of them, in some respects) do not believe Israel ought to exist, but only that it ought to behave differently. We can oppose Israel's government on any number of issues and remain Zionists.

That gives the lie, by the way, to the frequently-heard accusation that any criticism of Israel is routinely labeled "antisemitism" by Israel's supporters. That accusation itself smacks of antisemitism, since it is (1) invariably heard before any such accusation is made, a priori as it were; and (2) patently untrue.

To dispose of that topic, criticism of Israel or Israeli policy is no more antisemitic than criticism of America or American policy is anti-American; but there are specific kinds of criticism of Israel that can be, and often are, antisemitic.

First: Holding Israel to a very high standard of behavior while holding its enemies and neighbors to none at all. Three convenient examples:

(a) Denouncing Israel for "human-rights violations" when it is surrounded by nations with human-rights records that are orders of magnitude worse. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the other Arab nations in that neighborhood are among the most repressive and despotic states in the world, where torture, imprisonment for political reasons, and secret police are commonplace, and where free elections, a free press, and freedom of speech are nonexistent--not to mention equal rights for women and religious freedom.

(b) Denouncing Israel as an "apartheid, racist state" when Arabs live freely, work, own land, run businesses, vote, and even serve in the Knesset in Israel--while Jews in Muslim lands (where there are any left; more Jews were expelled from Arab nations in 1948 than Arabs from Israel) can do none of those things. The Palestinians demand that NO JEWS be permitted to live in the West Bank or Gaza, even though there were Jewish communities there dating back more than a thousand years before they were expelled in 1948--in Hebron, Safed, and so on. Yet it is the Israelis who are condemned as "racists," while Arabs live in Israel and sit in the Israeli Parliament.

(c) Condemning Israel for civilian casualties that occur during actions intended to stop terrorist attacks--while conveniently ignoring the fact that, according to the Geneva Convention, it is the Palestinians who are responsible for those casualties in that they routinely commit the war crime of deliberately hiding arms, explosives, and fighters among the civilian population. This kind of hypocritical, crypto-Nazi criticism also ignores the fact that Palestinian terrorists deliberately and consistently target Israeli civilians, including teenagers, women (specifically including pregnant women), and schoolchildren as a matter of policy. Anyone who complains about Israeli "atrocities" (and I freely admit there have been some) without denouncing the much more egregious atrocities of Israel's enemies is a liar by omission and a hypocrite.

Second: denying that Israel has a "right to exist" while applying that question and that reasoning to no other nation on Earth, e.g., Pakistan, which also came into existence by UN mandate, war, and the displacement of some people from their homes.

Enough of this. This is exactly why I did not wish to discuss these matters; but it's hard to avoid mentioning these things when the subjects of the legitimacy of the Jewish state and Israeli "atrocities" come up. Virtually all Jews, including those who are strongly critical of the Israeli government's policies, agree on these matters as well.

The main reason is this; Any question relating to the nation of Israel is irrelevant to religion.

Israel was not founded by religious Jews nor for religious reasons; Israeli policy is not determined on the basis of religion today, not has it ever been; and the religious community has very little control over matters in Israel other than marriage and matters relating directly to religious practice.

The community of liberal Jews, of which I and most American Jews are a part, has no say at all; religious life in Israel is entirely dominated by the Orthodox. There are more "Messianic" institutions in Israel than those of Conservative (Masorti) Jews like me, and even fewer associated with Reform Judaism.

I know this was probably more information than you wanted, but I hope it has been helpful. Like most matters concerning Jews and Judaism, the reality of the situation is rather more complex than a few slogans or soundbites are capable of explaining.

Welcome, again, to the forum.

[Jayhawker Soule]

First, Zionism is properly defined as a belief that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish nation and to defend itself. No more, no less. Though attempts have been made to redefine Zionism as racist, colonialist, imperialist, oppressive, and so on, none of those are accurate or honest. Zionism means supporting the existence and defense of the Jewish state, and nothing more.

Precisely - an excellent post.

[cnorman18]

First, Zionism is properly defined as a belief that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish nation and to defend itself. No more, no less. Though attempts have been made to redefine Zionism as racist, colonialist, imperialist, oppressive, and so on, none of those are accurate or honest. Zionism means supporting the existence and defense of the Jewish state, and nothing more.

Precisely - an excellent post.

Thanks very much!

Where you been, man?

[Jayhawker Soule]

First, Zionism is properly defined as a belief that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish nation and to defend itself. No more, no less. Though attempts have been made to redefine Zionism as racist, colonialist, imperialist, oppressive, and so on, none of those are accurate or honest. Zionism means supporting the existence and defense of the Jewish state, and nothing more.

Precisely - an excellent post.

Thanks very much!
Where you been, man?

I drop by ever so often, but so much of what we see on forums such as this is rerun. By the way, I love the Gershon quote!

Well, off to Torah class ...

[cnorman18]

First, Zionism is properly defined as a belief that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish nation and to defend itself. No more, no less. Though attempts have been made to redefine Zionism as racist, colonialist, imperialist, oppressive, and so on, none of those are accurate or honest. Zionism means supporting the existence and defense of the Jewish state, and nothing more.

Precisely - an excellent post.

Thanks very much!
Where you been, man?

I drop by ever so often, but so much of what we see on forums such as this is rerun. By the way, I love the Gershon quote!

Well, off to Torah class ...

That's my rabbi. I haven'r been to his shul in several years, but he did my conversion and I still claim him. A remarkable man.

Good to see you--er, so to speak.