Atheist Hero Might Be Changing His Mind...

[servant]

Richard Dawkins Calls Himself A "Cultural Christian"

Posted Dec 31st 2007 2:07PM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Christianity, History, Controversy, Atheism

Asked by a British member of Parliament if he is one of those atheists who wants to get rid of Christian symbols especially during the Christmas season, atheist Richard Dawkins replied that he is not. Dawkins said that he himself sings Christmas carols and that he considers himself a "cultural Christian." Just as many Jews regard themselves as Jewish, defend Jewish interests and cherish Jewish culture while not participating in Jewish religious rituals, Dawkins says that he respects the fact that the history and traditions of the West are shaped by Christianity. Dawkins says he's not one of those who wants to purge the West of its Christian traditions. The main threat to Christian symbols, Dawkins argues, does not come from atheists like him but rather from Muslims and members of other faiths.

Now this is quite remarkable. In The God Delusion, Dawkins portrayed the Christian God as a wicked, avaricious, capricious, genocidal maniac. Dawkins even blasted Jesus for such offenses as speaking harshly to his mother. Yet if the Jewish and Christian God was such a monster, what sense does it make for Dawkins to embrace the cultural influence of that deity? It would be like someone saying, "Hitler was a murderous maniac, but I am a cultural Nazi. No, I don't embrace the specifics of Nazi doctrine, but I appreciate what fascism has done to shape German culture. Let's give up the specifics of the Hitler program, but let's also keep Nazi culture along with the fuhrer's imagery on our coins and monuments."

Dawkins is not an unintelligent man, so what's going on here? One possibility is that Dawkins now recognizes that today's atheists who want to get rid of Christian symbols are just as intolerant as Christians who in the pst sought to deny atheists a voice in the public arena. So Dawkins' statement can be read as a critique of intolerance and political correctness.

A second possibility is that Dawkins now sees the Muslim threat to the West--and especially European culture--as more serious than the prospect of a second Christian Inquisition, so he has decided to ally with the Christians against the Islamic radicals. Other atheists like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens are now admitting that atheist attempts to equate Islamic extremism with Christianity are bogus. The real threat doesn't come from Presbyterianism or Anglicanism but from a radical Islam that wants to obliterate Western civilization.

I suspect that these two factors may have played a role, but the main reason for Dawkins' remarkable self-identification as a cultural Christian is that he has slowly come to realize that even the values that he cherishes--values such as individual dignity, science as an autonomous enterprise, the equal dignity of women, the abolition of slavery, and compassion as a social virtue--came into the West because of Christianity. I have been hammering this point in my debates with leading atheists, and it's possible that one of the Oxford historians came up to Dawkins and said, to his horror, "You know, Richard, that D'Souza chap has a point."

Okay, so let's give this biologist credit for learning a little history. Still, the deeper question remains. If the God of the Old and New Testaments is such a bad character, how come his cultural influence is so positive? Absent a good answer to this question, we must reconsider the premise: perhaps the God of the Old and New Testaments is not the evil figure portrayed in atheist propaganda. On the contrary, perhaps all our Western notions of good and bad derive from no source other than this Christian God. This certainly was Nietzsche's view, and he knew a lot more about the subject than Richard Dawkins. Wouldn't it be interesting if Dawkins continues his intellectual growth and reverses his old misunderstandings? Then he can reissue his book: Overcoming My Delusions: Confessions of a Cultural Christian.

Find the story here

[Zzyzx]

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The statement by Dinesh D'Souza quoted in the OP is, in my opinion, a strong distortion and expansion of what Dawkins actually said. It does NOT represent the words of Dawkins but the words of D’Souza, an avowed apologist.

Is it necessary to distort in order to defend Christianity?

One can read the difference between what Dawkins says in the actual article below vs. what D’Souza says in the OP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

Scientist Richard Dawkins, an atheist known worldwide for arguing against the existence of God, has described himself as a "cultural Christian".

He told the BBC's Have Your Say that he did not want to "purge" the UK of its Christian heritage.

The comments came after Tory MP Mark Pritchard accused "politically correct" people of undermining Christmas.

Professor Dawkins, author of the God Delusion, added that he liked "singing Carols along with everybody else".

On Have Your Say, Mr Pritchard told Prof Dawkins there was an "increasing feeling" that "many of the main Christian festivals are being sidelined and marginalised, sometimes by stealth, sometimes openly".

This, he argued, would allow groups such as the British National Party, to utilise Christian imagery for their own ends.

'Singing carols'

Prof Dawkins, who has frequently spoken out against creationism and religious fundamentalism, replied: "I'm not one of those who wants to stop Christian traditions.

"This is historically a Christian country. I'm a cultural Christian in the same way many of my friends call themselves cultural Jews or cultural Muslims.

"So, yes, I like singing carols along with everybody else. I'm not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history.

"If there's any threat these sorts of things, I think you will find it comes from rival religions and not from atheists."

'Historical signifiance'

Last week, Mr Pritchard called a parliamentary debate on "Christianophobia".

The MP for The Wrekin, Shropshire, complained that Christian heritage was being undermined by secular officials and public figures.

During that debate, community cohesion minister Parmjit Dhanda told MPs that Christianity had had a "significant impact" in securing people's rights and freedoms.

He added: "I fully recognise the full historical and cultural significance [of Christianity] in our country.

"We should all be aware of that and celebrate that."

And the head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips, said schools were wrong if they thought celebrating Christmas excluded children who were not Christian.

He said: "Christmas and the celebration of Christmas in this country, though it is a religious festival, is one in which people who are of no religion - or other religions - can share."

It is grabbing at straws to suggest “changing his mind” from:

Dawkins says that he respects the fact that the history and traditions of the West are shaped by Christianity. Dawkins says he's not one of those who wants to purge the West of its Christian traditions.

Many non-theists have no desire to “purge Christian traditions”. However, many theists do desire to “purge non-believer ideas”.


D’Souza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinesh_D'Souza .

[servant]

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

I'm sorry Z I'm rolling on this one

For the record I posted the BBC link at the bottom of my post.

[Zzyzx]

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

I'm sorry Z I'm rolling on this one

As I say, grasping at straws (or it may be "gasping" if one rolls with religious fervor) indicates weakness of position.

For the record I posted the BBC link at the bottom of my post.

I agree that you posted the link. My "distortion" comment was directed toward D’Souza. However, placing emphasis on a distortion in an attempt to promote one's religious beliefs is invalid in my opinion.

[Sciwoman]

Professor Dawkins is not changing his mind. He was merely acknowledging that he was brought up in a country that does not have separation of church and state and is therefore heavily influenced by christianty, particularly the Anglican form. As he grew up, he absorbed that culture and it is part of his identity, just as the culture any of us grow up in is part of ours. He is familiar with the forms and language of christianty, without being a christian.

I was raised catholic and find a great deal of beauty in many of those old, ornate catholic churches. I like Gregorian chant. From my many years as a fundamentalist christian, I can also find beauty in the simplicity of an old country church. But none of those things mean that I'm about to re-convert.

[Goat]

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

I'm sorry Z I'm rolling on this one

As I say, grasping at straws (or it may be "gasping" if one rolls with religious fervor) indicates weakness of position.

For the record I posted the BBC link at the bottom of my post.

I agree that you posted the link. My "distortion" comment was directed toward D’Souza. However, placing emphasis on a distortion in an attempt to promote one's religious beliefs is invalid in my opinion.

It looks like D'Souza has a reputation even among conservatives of distortion. Considering his reputation, I would be very skeptical of any of his claims.

[wrekk]

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

I'm sorry Z I'm rolling on this one

For the record I posted the BBC link at the bottom of my post.

I'm sorry Servant I'm rolling on this one myself. But I'm laughing at the example you posted...

Have you even read ANY of Dawkins work? What exactly do you know about Dawkins?

Here's an example of the opposite of what you posted: (taken from the Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz debate)

There's a wonderful Hasidic story of an old Rabbi in Poland, and man came over to him and said, "You say never to say anything bad about anybody because it's a sin in Jewish law to engage in lashon ha-ra (bad words), but I bet I can come up with somebody you can't say good word about." And the Rabbi said, "Who?" And he said, "Atheists." And the Rabbi said, "No, there's one time in your life when it's very important to be an Atheist." The student was shocked for the Rabbi to say it's important to be an atheist, when? He said, "When a poor person comes to you for charity, act as if there is no God. Act as if you are the only person on the face of the earth who can save that poor human being, and give him charity, not because God wants you to give him charity, but because THAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Now my question to you is, was the Rabbi stating that he was turning Atheist? Was he saying that Atheism is better?

[Goat]

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

I'm sorry Z I'm rolling on this one

For the record I posted the BBC link at the bottom of my post.

I'm sorry Servant I'm rolling on this one myself. But I'm laughing at the example you posted...

Have you even read ANY of Dawkins work? What exactly do you know about Dawkins?

Here's an example of the opposite of what you posted: (taken from the Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz debate)

There's a wonderful Hasidic story of an old Rabbi in Poland, and man came over to him and said, "You say never to say anything bad about anybody because it's a sin in Jewish law to engage in lashon ha-ra (bad words), but I bet I can come up with somebody you can't say good word about." And the Rabbi said, "Who?" And he said, "Atheists." And the Rabbi said, "No, there's one time in your life when it's very important to be an Atheist." The student was shocked for the Rabbi to say it's important to be an atheist, when? He said, "When a poor person comes to you for charity, act as if there is no God. Act as if you are the only person on the face of the earth who can save that poor human being, and give him charity, not because God wants you to give him charity, but because THAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Now my question to you is, was the Rabbi stating that he was turning Atheist? Was he saying that Atheism is better?

Now, that is very Jewish! It goes to the core about modern Judaism.. how it is WORKS that are important.

[Cathar1950]

I find my self a cultural Christian and odd Hebrew influences as well as Greek and Persian. I can understand the concept of an atheist Jew and an atheist Christian.
It is a reasonable description of many and anything in between.
Any Western that says he has not been influenced by Christianity and many have also been shaped, would have to have been home schooled by some recluse.
That doesn't make it the cause of all good thing or bad things. But Christians were also shaped by influences as were their influences before them.
Some modern scholars think that the Christian influence has not allowed many scholars to think outside the box. They even ask questions that assume the answer.
I don't entertain the idea that Christianity or any other religion or system is worthless.
As a outgrown, recovering or former Christian there is much I hold dear and admire.
There is much to be admired by others and about others.
But it doesn't look like he changed his mind as he was admitting his cultural bias and leanings.

[wrekk]

Here's an example of the opposite of what you posted: (taken from the Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz debate)

There's a wonderful Hasidic story of an old Rabbi in Poland, and man came over to him and said, "You say never to say anything bad about anybody because it's a sin in Jewish law to engage in lashon ha-ra (bad words), but I bet I can come up with somebody you can't say good word about." And the Rabbi said, "Who?" And he said, "Atheists." And the Rabbi said, "No, there's one time in your life when it's very important to be an Atheist." The student was shocked for the Rabbi to say it's important to be an atheist, when? He said, "When a poor person comes to you for charity, act as if there is no God. Act as if you are the only person on the face of the earth who can save that poor human being, and give him charity, not because God wants you to give him charity, but because THAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Now my question to you is, was the Rabbi stating that he was turning Atheist? Was he saying that Atheism is better?

I am waiting for you "to have fun with this" Servant. Any response to this?