Essentially this question I think comes down to Free Will vs. Determism.
Does God change our hearts or do we?
I am of the opinion that God does not either predetermined or by force himself on anyone. I believe God pokes, prods, guides, talks to, reveals, etc... a person and THAT person makes the choice to follow God and allow God into their heart.
If it is God who changes our hearts then we all have been forced to do something beyond our will and are mere forced slave type servants. As opposed to willfully submitting our lives for service.
I believe the Bible says and implies that Salvation is different than the choice to be saved. Repentance and its root words essentially say that the word means to change your mind. To change your thinking. Salvation is a benefit of that, not an enabling event into heaven. Much like choosing to swim to a life boat. The life boat is the salvation, but you decided to swim to it.
Other views?
Does God Change Our Hearts, or Do We?
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Pentecostal
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Post #3
Icarus:
Psalm 51:10-11
“Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.”
James 4:6-8
“But He gives more grace. Therefore He says; God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble. Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.”
The door to our heart has a handle on the "inside" only, and can be only opened by us. This holds true from the start - "salvation", and continues every day of our walk with Jesus, until that day in which we leave it totally open and accessible to Him. This is a matter of our choosing to do so - in other words "humble submission".
Hebrews 11:1“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
In-as-much as God did not create us as preprogrammed creatures, we as do the Angles have the right of free choice. It is God who changes our heart, however, if and only when we have made the willing choice – Your Will not mine be done.
Essentially this question I think comes down to Free Will vs. Determism.
Does God change our hearts or do we?
I am of the opinion that God does not either predetermined or by force himself on anyone. I believe God pokes, prods, guides, talks to, reveals, etc... a person and THAT person makes the choice to follow God and allow God into their heart.
If it is God who changes our hearts then we all have been forced to do something beyond our will and are mere forced slave type servants. As opposed to willfully submitting our lives for service.
Psalm 51:10-11
“Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.”
James 4:6-8
“But He gives more grace. Therefore He says; God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble. Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.”
The door to our heart has a handle on the "inside" only, and can be only opened by us. This holds true from the start - "salvation", and continues every day of our walk with Jesus, until that day in which we leave it totally open and accessible to Him. This is a matter of our choosing to do so - in other words "humble submission".
Hebrews 11:1“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
In-as-much as God did not create us as preprogrammed creatures, we as do the Angles have the right of free choice. It is God who changes our heart, however, if and only when we have made the willing choice – Your Will not mine be done.
DAV - USAF
For God & Country
To Serve, Defend & Protect
American, Republican, Conservative, HAWK
For God & Country
To Serve, Defend & Protect
American, Republican, Conservative, HAWK
Post #4
Let me ask first, without presenting my view, a simple question.
Would it be morally wrong if God did perhaps harden someone's heart so that they were to sin; then punish them for that sin?
Would it be morally wrong if God did perhaps harden someone's heart so that they were to sin; then punish them for that sin?
Post #5
Pentacostal,
These quotes don't help your point. Each has an action initiated by the individual NOT by God to CHOOSE God.
"Create in me" a request first from the individual.
"Draw near to God" an action by the individual.
"faith comes by hearing" an action of listening and choosing to obey the call to freedom.
Sofyst,
It would be morally wrong to impose a hardening on a free individual and then condeming that person for that imposition. God will allow an individual to go even further into a hardening but he himself will not harden the heart.
These quotes don't help your point. Each has an action initiated by the individual NOT by God to CHOOSE God.
"Create in me" a request first from the individual.
"Draw near to God" an action by the individual.
"faith comes by hearing" an action of listening and choosing to obey the call to freedom.
Sofyst,
It would be morally wrong to impose a hardening on a free individual and then condeming that person for that imposition. God will allow an individual to go even further into a hardening but he himself will not harden the heart.
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias
Post #6
Exodus 4:21 'But I will harden Pharaoh's heart so that he won't let the people go'
This is the Lord speaking. Would you say that we are to understand this as not Him hardening Pharoah's heart, but rather just letting Pharoah's heart grow harder? Are you suggesting that when God says that He will do something (harden Pharoah's heart), we are to not understand it as this, rather as some other meaning?
If not. How would you explain this passage as well as Exo 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 27; 11:10; 14:4; all of which specifically call the hardnening of Pharoah's heart an act of God.
This is the Lord speaking. Would you say that we are to understand this as not Him hardening Pharoah's heart, but rather just letting Pharoah's heart grow harder? Are you suggesting that when God says that He will do something (harden Pharoah's heart), we are to not understand it as this, rather as some other meaning?
If not. How would you explain this passage as well as Exo 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 27; 11:10; 14:4; all of which specifically call the hardnening of Pharoah's heart an act of God.
Post #7
Sofyst,
I saw you coming brother
. I like Clarke's study on the issue the best mainly because it also addresses other subjects in the explanation. I had typed some similar things while looking up the passage and references for a reply. I thought Clarke's was worth the length.
"Would men but look at the whole account without the medium of their respective creeds, they would find little difficulty to apprehend the truth. If we take up the subject in a theological point of view, all sober Christians will allow the truth of this proposition of St. Augustine, when the subject in question is a person who has hardened his own heart by frequently resisting the grace and spirit of God: ...(latin text) "God does not harden men by infusing malice into them, but by not imparting mercy to them." ...(latin text) "God does not work this hardness of heart in man; but he may be said to harden him whom he refuses to soften, to blind him whom he refuses to enlighten, and to repel him whom he refuses to call." It is but just and right that he should withhold those graces which he had repeatedly offered, and which the sinner had despised and rejected. Thus much for the general principle. The verb chazak, which we translate harden, literally signifies to strengthen, confirm, make bold or courageous; and is often used in the sacred writings to excite to duty, perseverance, is placed by the Jews at the end of most books in the Bible as an exhortation to the reader to take courage, and proceed with his reading and with the obedience it requires. It constitutes an essential part of the exhortation of God to Joshua, Jos 1:7: Only be thou STRONG, rak chazak. And of Joshua's dying exhortation to the people, Jos 23:6: Be ye therefore VERY COURAGEOUS, vachazaktem, to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law. Now it would he very strange in these places to translate the word harden: Only be thou hard, Be ye therefore very hard; and yet if we use the word hardy, it would suit the sense and context perfectly well: Only be thou HARDY; Be ye therefore very HARDY. Now suppose we apply the word in this way to Pharaoh, the sense would be good, and the justice of God equally conspicuous. I will make his heart hardy, bold, daring, presumptuous; for the same principle acting against God's order is presumption, which when acting according to it is undaunted courage. It is true that the verb kashah is used, Ex 7:3, which signifies to render stiff, tough, or stubborn, but it amounts to nearly the same meaning with the above.
All those who have read the Scriptures with care and attention, know well that God is frequently represented in them as doing what he only permits to be done. So because a man has grieved his Spirit and resisted his grace he withdraws that Spirit and grace from him, and thus he becomes bold and presumptuous in sin. Pharaoh made his own heart stubborn against God, Ex 9:34; and God gave him up to judicial blindness, so that he rushed on stubbornly to his own destruction. From the whole of Pharaoh's conduct we learn that he was bold, haughty, and cruel; and God chose to permit these dispositions to have their full sway in his heart without check or restraint from Divine influence: the consequence was what God intended, he did not immediately comply with the requisition to let the people go; and this was done that God might have the fuller opportunity of manifesting his power by multiplying signs and miracles, and thus impress the hearts both of the Egyptians and Israelites with a due sense of his omnipotence and justice. The whole procedure was graciously calculated to do endless good to both nations. The Israelites must be satisfied that they had the true God for their protector; and thus their faith was strengthened. The Egyptians must see that their gods could do nothing against the God of Israel; and thus their dependence on them was necessarily shaken. These great ends could not have been answered had Pharaoh at once consented to let the people go. This consideration alone unravels the mystery, and explains everything. Let it be observed that there is nothing spoken here of the eternal state of the Egyptian king; nor does anything in the whole of the subsequent account authorize us to believe that God hardened his heart against the influences of his own grace, that he might occasion him so to sin that his justice might consign him to hell. This would be such an act of flagrant injustice as we could scarcely attribute to the worst of men. He who leads another into an offence that he may have a fairer pretence to punish him for it, or brings him into such circumstances that he cannot avoid committing a capital crime, and then hangs him for it, is surely the most execrable of mortals. What then should we make of the God of justice and mercy should we attribute to him a decree, the date of which is lost in eternity, by which he has determined to cut off from the possibility of salvation millions of millions of unborn souls, and leave them under a necessity of sinning, by actually hardening their hearts against the influences of his own grace and Spirit, that he may, on the pretext of justice, consign them to endless perdition? Whatever may be pretended in behalf of such unqualified opinions, it must be evident to all who are not deeply prejudiced, that neither the justice nor the sovereignty of God can be magnified by them.
Here is a shorter one from Scolfield:
4:21 harden his heart
(Cf)In the face of the righteous demand of Jehovah and of the tremendous attestations by miracle that He was indeed God, and that Moses and Aaron were His representatives, Pharaoh "hardened his heart." Instrumentally God hardened Pharaoh's heart by forcing him to an issue against which he hardened his own heart in refusal. Light rejected, rightful obedience refused, inevitably hardens conscience and heart.
I saw you coming brother
. I like Clarke's study on the issue the best mainly because it also addresses other subjects in the explanation. I had typed some similar things while looking up the passage and references for a reply. I thought Clarke's was worth the length."Would men but look at the whole account without the medium of their respective creeds, they would find little difficulty to apprehend the truth. If we take up the subject in a theological point of view, all sober Christians will allow the truth of this proposition of St. Augustine, when the subject in question is a person who has hardened his own heart by frequently resisting the grace and spirit of God: ...(latin text) "God does not harden men by infusing malice into them, but by not imparting mercy to them." ...(latin text) "God does not work this hardness of heart in man; but he may be said to harden him whom he refuses to soften, to blind him whom he refuses to enlighten, and to repel him whom he refuses to call." It is but just and right that he should withhold those graces which he had repeatedly offered, and which the sinner had despised and rejected. Thus much for the general principle. The verb chazak, which we translate harden, literally signifies to strengthen, confirm, make bold or courageous; and is often used in the sacred writings to excite to duty, perseverance, is placed by the Jews at the end of most books in the Bible as an exhortation to the reader to take courage, and proceed with his reading and with the obedience it requires. It constitutes an essential part of the exhortation of God to Joshua, Jos 1:7: Only be thou STRONG, rak chazak. And of Joshua's dying exhortation to the people, Jos 23:6: Be ye therefore VERY COURAGEOUS, vachazaktem, to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law. Now it would he very strange in these places to translate the word harden: Only be thou hard, Be ye therefore very hard; and yet if we use the word hardy, it would suit the sense and context perfectly well: Only be thou HARDY; Be ye therefore very HARDY. Now suppose we apply the word in this way to Pharaoh, the sense would be good, and the justice of God equally conspicuous. I will make his heart hardy, bold, daring, presumptuous; for the same principle acting against God's order is presumption, which when acting according to it is undaunted courage. It is true that the verb kashah is used, Ex 7:3, which signifies to render stiff, tough, or stubborn, but it amounts to nearly the same meaning with the above.
All those who have read the Scriptures with care and attention, know well that God is frequently represented in them as doing what he only permits to be done. So because a man has grieved his Spirit and resisted his grace he withdraws that Spirit and grace from him, and thus he becomes bold and presumptuous in sin. Pharaoh made his own heart stubborn against God, Ex 9:34; and God gave him up to judicial blindness, so that he rushed on stubbornly to his own destruction. From the whole of Pharaoh's conduct we learn that he was bold, haughty, and cruel; and God chose to permit these dispositions to have their full sway in his heart without check or restraint from Divine influence: the consequence was what God intended, he did not immediately comply with the requisition to let the people go; and this was done that God might have the fuller opportunity of manifesting his power by multiplying signs and miracles, and thus impress the hearts both of the Egyptians and Israelites with a due sense of his omnipotence and justice. The whole procedure was graciously calculated to do endless good to both nations. The Israelites must be satisfied that they had the true God for their protector; and thus their faith was strengthened. The Egyptians must see that their gods could do nothing against the God of Israel; and thus their dependence on them was necessarily shaken. These great ends could not have been answered had Pharaoh at once consented to let the people go. This consideration alone unravels the mystery, and explains everything. Let it be observed that there is nothing spoken here of the eternal state of the Egyptian king; nor does anything in the whole of the subsequent account authorize us to believe that God hardened his heart against the influences of his own grace, that he might occasion him so to sin that his justice might consign him to hell. This would be such an act of flagrant injustice as we could scarcely attribute to the worst of men. He who leads another into an offence that he may have a fairer pretence to punish him for it, or brings him into such circumstances that he cannot avoid committing a capital crime, and then hangs him for it, is surely the most execrable of mortals. What then should we make of the God of justice and mercy should we attribute to him a decree, the date of which is lost in eternity, by which he has determined to cut off from the possibility of salvation millions of millions of unborn souls, and leave them under a necessity of sinning, by actually hardening their hearts against the influences of his own grace and Spirit, that he may, on the pretext of justice, consign them to endless perdition? Whatever may be pretended in behalf of such unqualified opinions, it must be evident to all who are not deeply prejudiced, that neither the justice nor the sovereignty of God can be magnified by them.
Here is a shorter one from Scolfield:
4:21 harden his heart
(Cf)In the face of the righteous demand of Jehovah and of the tremendous attestations by miracle that He was indeed God, and that Moses and Aaron were His representatives, Pharaoh "hardened his heart." Instrumentally God hardened Pharaoh's heart by forcing him to an issue against which he hardened his own heart in refusal. Light rejected, rightful obedience refused, inevitably hardens conscience and heart.
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias
Post #8
I had no doubt you probably knew where I was going, as it is the obvious place for this discussion to visit within Scripture.
Are you then saying that the act of hardening Pharoah's heart was an active action by Pharaoh, but somewhat of a passive one by God? God hardened Pharaoh's heart by not bestowing mercy upon it? Would you say that this mercy was required for Pharaoh to obey the Father?
Regardless. I do not necessarily see why the discussion should go into how exactly God did the hardening. Whether it be actively or passively. All is see is that the Scripture clearly tells us the just as Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so the Father hardened Pharaoh's heart. If we conclude that Pharaoh's was active and the Father's was passive, sobeit. Yet what we must conclude is that both are attributed with the act of hardening, and the outcome of this hardening was Pharaoh's disobedience. Or would you disagree?
Are you then saying that the act of hardening Pharoah's heart was an active action by Pharaoh, but somewhat of a passive one by God? God hardened Pharaoh's heart by not bestowing mercy upon it? Would you say that this mercy was required for Pharaoh to obey the Father?
Regardless. I do not necessarily see why the discussion should go into how exactly God did the hardening. Whether it be actively or passively. All is see is that the Scripture clearly tells us the just as Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so the Father hardened Pharaoh's heart. If we conclude that Pharaoh's was active and the Father's was passive, sobeit. Yet what we must conclude is that both are attributed with the act of hardening, and the outcome of this hardening was Pharaoh's disobedience. Or would you disagree?
Post #9
Sofyst,
Sorry for the delay. Had some work to focus on.
Sorry for the delay. Had some work to focus on.
yes.Are you then saying that the act of hardening Pharoah\'s heart was an active action by Pharaoh,
I would not use passive. God was active in letting go of P's restraints. But "passive" will do until I think of a better word.but somewhat of a passive one by God?
There is a twisting of words here. Again, God himself is not actively hardening P's heart, P is. God is simply removing the flood gates if you will, and P is choosing to go farther into a harder heart.God hardened Pharaoh\'s heart by not bestowing mercy upon it?
No.Would you say that this mercy was required for Pharaoh to obey the Father?
The removal of sustaining grace (or Set Boundaries that keep [us] from killing each time [we] get angry with someone) is attributed to God, but the hardening of the heart is contributed by Pharaoh.Yet what we must conclude is that both are attributed with the act of hardening, and the outcome of this hardening was Pharaoh\'s disobedience. Or would you disagree?
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias
Post #10
Sir the Scriptures say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Would you then, in saying 'the removal of sustaining grace is attributed to God', be saying that the act of hardening is attributed to God? Is hardening Pharaoh's heart by God the same as 'the removal of sustaining grace' by God? Or are these two completely different things?The removal of sustaining grace (or Set Boundaries that keep [us] from killing each time [we] get angry with someone) is attributed to God, but the hardening of the heart is contributed by Pharaoh.
Regardless of if we say that God is simply removing the floodgates, or if we refrain from saying that God is 'actively hardening Pharaoh's heart, if we are going to be true to Scripture we still have to say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.There is a twisting of words here. Again, God himself is not actively hardening P's heart, P is. God is simply removing the flood gates if you will, and P is choosing to go farther into a harder heart.
Read the account of Job. Satan caused all the suffering to come upon Job, yet the suffering is also attributed to God. I think the parallel is here.
We are told within Scripture that Pharaoh's heart is hardened. We are likewise told that God hardened Pharaoh's heart; as we are also told that Pharaoh hardened his own. Therefore if we conclude that Pharaoh hardening his own heart is equal to him just sinking deeper into sin; and God hardening Pharaoh's heart is equal to God simply removing the flood gates, we still must say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, as did Pharaoh.
Or would you still disagree??
