A speculation about Hell

[cnorman18]

A long time ago--I forget where or when--I read, in a book on "near-death experiences," that many people live through a sort of "review" of their lives at the moment of death. Some said that the experience seemed to last a mere fraction of a second, and at the same time it seemed to last for years. This may be where that bit of folklore about one's "life passing before one's eyes" when close to death may come from.

One or two sixh reports piqued my interest; these people reported that this "review" did not take place from one's own perspective, but from that of others. One experienced, from their point of view, exactly how one had affected their lives, from the inside, as it were; and not only the people one had actually met, but all those whose lives one had touched indirectly as well.

One relived the moments that one had created in others' lives as those people experienced them. The more power one had, and the more people one had affected in life, the longer such a review would have to be.

If one was kind and charitable, such a review would be mostly pleasant; if one was cold and callous, less so; if one was cruel or sadistic, quite unpleasant indeed. It turns out that we are all connected, and each one of really is a part of everyone else.

There seems to be a certain justice in that to me; the ultimate justice, in a way. What you have done unto others becomes what you have done to yourself. You get to find out "How would that feel to you?" in a literal way.

Now consider Hitler.

How long would his review last? Ten million years? Twenty million? A hundred million centuries? Living through the years, even decades, of misery, torment and agonizing death he had inflicted upon so many millions of people worldwide, and knowing and feeling every moment of them from inside each individual person's body and mind, just as it happened...

If that's not Hell, exactly, it strikes me as being pretty damned close. Not eternal--but plenty long enough. Not flames--but perhaps worse than flames.

The greater the criminal, the longer the sentence. The worse the crime, the more severe the punishment--in direct and precise proportion.

I kinda like it. Any comments?

[servant]

Thanks for the pointers McCulloch about the Hyperlink I did read what it said. I dont really see your point, Jesus said a lot of things.

This passage I believe your referring to indicates having a personal relationship with Christ when it talks about "helping those in prison, the poor and homeless". God to be just has to have some standard of Judging (His Laws). If you find you have no relationship with Christ at Judgement the Law will condemn you as you will be without excuse as we have all broken the Law. Sucks I know but it's just the way it will work.

Again just put yourself in a man's courtroom. The justice system has to be based on some kind of Law for punishment to be fair.

You guys need to keep it simple. Your thinking to much. If there is no Hell prove it. Coming up with a bunch of theories is not proving anything. Now the only person I have ever heard of that Lived, Died and rose Again is Jesus. He talked about the afterlife.

If you dont believe in Jesus or what He said, then give me another person that has similar claims and can be verified from outside sources of Living and Dieing and something happening in history that indicates he possibly rose again.

Only someone that has experienced first hand the afterlife can know for sure. We all have our hopes, believes and theories

[cnorman18]

(And, of course, yet another OP goes down the pipes with no significant discussion of the intended subject. Oh, well. It was just a bit of harmless speculation anyway.)

[McCulloch]

This passage I believe your referring to indicates having a personal relationship with Christ when it talks about "helping those in prison, the poor and homeless".

The passage I refer to makes no mention of a personal relationship with Christ.

God to be just has to have some standard of Judging (His Laws). If you find you have no relationship with Christ at Judgment the Law will condemn you as you will be without excuse as we have all broken the Law. Sucks I know but it's just the way it will work.

I think that you misunderstand the meaning of just. In a human courtroom, a judge who rules differently depending on who has a personal relationship with him is considered to be unjust.

Again just put yourself in a man's courtroom. The justice system has to be based on some kind of Law for punishment to be fair.

Yes, and ...

You guys need to keep it simple. Your thinking to much.

That would be you're not your. Yes, we think too much. Everyone knows that God favours those who do not think too much. Ever wonder why?

If there is no Hell prove it.

If there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster, prove it. The fact is, that in debate the one making the positive assertion, such as there is an eternal hell for unbelievers, has the burden of proof.

Coming up with a bunch of theories is not proving anything.

Don't tell theologians this, they will all be out of a job.

Now the only person I have ever heard of that Lived, Died and rose Again is Jesus. He talked about the afterlife.

This is what is called a positive assertion. Prove it. There are lots of claims made by various religions that people have come back from being dead. None of them have any valid evidence.

Oh and don't forget

Jesus said, "Remove the stone." Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, "Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days."
Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"
So they removed the stone Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me."
When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth."
The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."

So your own scripture makes a lie of your claim that Jesus was the only one to have lived, died and rose again.

[servant]

Wow McCulloch I must have hit a nerve. You are starting to hurt my feelings.

The passage I refer to makes no mention of a personal relationship with Christ.

I said indicate not mention.

I think that you misunderstand the meaning of just. In a human courtroom, a judge who rules differently depending on who has a personal relationship with him is considered to be unjust.

In a courtroom you will be judged based on the Law. It's really pretty simple to understand. You break the Law you have to be punished. Go out and speed through a school zone during school hours at 120 mph and you'll find out what I mean.

That would be you're not your. Yes, we think too much. Everyone knows that God favours those who do not think too much. Ever wonder why?

I'm crying now. Hope your happy

If there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster, prove it. The fact is, that in debate the one making the positive assertion, such as there is an eternal hell for unbelievers, has the burden of proof.

Flying Spaghetti Monster? Please provide some source of information regarding this creature. You are saying there is no Hell so you proof it to me. I don't play by your rules. Plus I've noted someone in history to claim they know now you produce someone.

Don't tell theologians this, they will all be out of a job.

Nuts

This is what is called a positive assertion. Prove it. There are lots of claims made by various religions that people have come back from being dead. None of them have any valid evidence.

Give me some names of anyone that has claims of dieing and experiencing the afterlife then coming back to life.

So your own scripture makes a lie of your claim that Jesus was the only one to have lived, died and rose again.

This just shows the power of Jesus to have power over death. I have to assume that Lazarus did end up dieing after Jesus rose him or I'm sure History would have noted it and people would have been torn between who to follow.

[McCulloch]

Wow McCulloch I must have hit a nerve. You are starting to hurt my feelings.

Sorry about that. I'll try to be more careful.

The passage I refer to makes no mention of a personal relationship with Christ.

I said indicate not mention.

I must be rather thick, I did not notice the difference. How does the text of the passage I referred to indicate a personal relationship with Christ? I see no such indication.

I think that you misunderstand the meaning of just. In a human courtroom, a judge who rules differently depending on who has a personal relationship with him is considered to be unjust.

In a courtroom you will be judged based on the Law. It's really pretty simple to understand. You break the Law you have to be punished. Go out and speed through a school zone during school hours at 120 mph and you'll find out what I mean.

I was jumping the gun. I know that later on in your analogy, you will claim that a personal relationship with the judge will get someone mercy rather than justice.

That would be you're not your.

My mother was a grammar teacher.

If there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster, prove it. The fact is, that in debate the one making the positive assertion, such as there is an eternal hell for unbelievers, has the burden of proof.

You are saying there is no Hell so you proof it to me.

No, I am not. I am saying that there is no credible evidence upon which to rationally believe that there is a Hell. If you have such evidence, produce it. Otherwise, we might as well all claim that anything that anyone has said is true.

I don't play by your rules.

I've noticed.

Plus I've noted someone in history to claim they know, now you produce someone.

You have noted ancient religious texts which claim that someone has been there and come back. There are many shamans and prophets from many different religions who claim to have visited various spiritual realms. All of them have as much credibility as the claim that Jesus did.

This is what is called a positive assertion. Prove it. There are lots of claims made by various religions that people have come back from being dead. None of them have any valid evidence.

Give me some names of anyone that has claims of dieing and experiencing the afterlife then coming back to life.

I would be arguing against myself if I were to produce such evidence. I don't believe that there is an afterlife, therefore I do not believe that there is anyone, not even Jesus, who has died and come back to life. You, on the other hand, have made the unsupported assertion that "Now the only person I have ever heard of that Lived, Died and rose Again is Jesus. " I am only asking you to provide some sort of evidence that your claim has merit. Is that against your rules?

So your own scripture makes a lie of your claim that Jesus was the only one to have lived, died and rose again.

This just shows the power of Jesus to have power over death. I have to assume that Lazarus did end up dieing after Jesus rose him or I'm sure History would have noted it and people would have been torn between who to follow.

Lazarus, if the New Testament is to be believed, lived, died and rose again. Presumably, he then lived some more and died a second time. So what? The fact is, the very book you use to base your claim that Jesus lived, died and rose again provides an example of someone else who lived, died and rose again. However, I do not want to belabor that point. I'm more interested in the other direction. Please provide some evidence to back up the assertion that you have made that someone has come back after dying.

[servant]

It does not matter if you believe in a afterlife or not. Your hopes and believes will do you know good if you find out your wrong. On the other hand if I find out I'm wrong I'm in no worse boat than you.

Now there is plenty of evidence without the bible that Jesus lived and died. The question is why did so many people believe that He raised from the dead. It's hard for me to believe that most of the original disciples were put to death for a lie that they knew about. It would have been easy to prove Jesus was just a good guy and when He died He was like every one else, He stayed in the ground because He was dead.

Now it would be of no use to provide any evidence via reasons that Christ is alive as you seem to be a 100 percent sure it is impossible that He lived, He died and He rose again. There is no room for a Christ in your mind or heart and therefore, even if God wrote in the sky in large letters "McCulloch I Love You. God" you would explain it away as some kind of science or natural reason.

Finally I would like to point out that I never said I have complete 100 percent knowledge regarding all things. Without 100 percent knowledge I have to admit that a theory or believe might be a reality.

[Goat]

It does not matter if you believe in a afterlife or not. Your hopes and believes will do you know good if you find out your wrong. On the other hand if I find out I'm wrong I'm in no worse boat than you.

Unless, of course, believing in no god is better than believing in the WRONG god.

Now there is plenty of evidence without the bible that Jesus lived and died. The question is why did so many people believe that He raised from the dead. It's hard for me to believe that most of the original disciples were put to death for a lie that they knew about. It would have been easy to prove Jesus was just a good guy and when He died He was like every one else, He stayed in the ground because He was dead.

Really?? Can you name any evidence from before the the Jewish revolt that could be considered evidence? Can you show that any of that 'evidence' didn't get their information from Christian beliefs, rather than having a primary source that did not have Christians involved?

Lets see some pre-jewish revolt sources that aren't forgeries. The Jewish revolt is the time period where much of the Gospels appear to have been written, so anything after that , the information is likely to have come from Christians, or the Christians scriptures.

[servant]

Goat does it really matter. I'm not going to convince you or anyone else that claim they are 100 percent sure theres no God. But I found this thread and I'm sure you have already been over this many times before. Have fun.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=5732

[Goat]

Goat does it really matter. I'm not going to convince you or anyone else that claim they are 100 percent sure theres no God. But I found this thread and I'm sure you have already been over this many times before. Have fun.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=5732

Sigh.. yes.. the same old tired sources, that have been gone over 100's of times.

You see, those sources are either known forgeries (jospehus), or the writer got
the information FROM Christians, and are second century. You can call all those
sources evidence for Christians, but not for the historical Jesus.

[McCulloch]

It does not matter if you believe in a afterlife or not.

You don't believe that do you? I don't. It does matter if you believe in an afterlife.

Your hopes and believes will do you no good if you find out your wrong. On the other hand if I find out I'm wrong I'm in no worse boat than you.

Please, can't you guys leave Pascal's discredited wager alone.

Now there is plenty of evidence without the bible that Jesus lived and died.

Really? Your definition of plenty and mine must be quite different. I have looked at the evidence that Jesus lived and died from outside the Bible. I would describe it as scant. The evidence for his resurrection outside of the Bible is non-existent.

The question is why did so many people believe that He raised from the dead.

Tom Harper and Spong make rather good arguments that few if any people at the time believed in a literal bodily resurrection.

Now it would be of no use to provide any evidence via reasons that Christ is alive as you seem to be a 100 percent sure it is impossible that He lived, He died and He rose again. There is no room for a Christ in your mind or heart and therefore, even if God wrote in the sky in large letters "McCulloch I Love You. God" you would explain it away as some kind of science or natural reason.

I think that you are judging me. I claim that I will look, critically and harshly, at the evidence but you say that you would withhold such evidence because you have judged me to have already made up my mind. I have room, as you say, in my mind and heart for God and Jesus. I used to believe. Show me a convincing reason to believe and I will.

Finally I would like to point out that I never said I have complete 100 percent knowledge regarding all things.

That's good. Omniscience is philosophically difficult.

Without 100 percent knowledge I have to admit that a theory or believe might be a reality.

Now faith is the assurance (or being sure) of what you hope for ...
Do you have faith?