Former Christians

[Goose]

From another thread in the apologetics forum titled Are you a Christian? I had some questions but thought they might be off topic for that thread so I've posted them here as I wans't sure where to put them.

1. Did you know God? I don't mean know about Him or the Bible. I mean did you know Him?

2. Were there any evidences of your faith?

3. Did you ever experience the presence of the Holy Spirit?

4. Did you believe that Christ rose from the dead to vindicate His claims?

5. Did you ever humble yourself before Him?

[Goose]

Perhaps the problem is that your world view doesn't allow you to think outside the box of naturalism.

I can think outside of the box of naturalism. Plenty of Sci-fi and fantasy are exercises in that...

Like multiverses, black holes, quarks, and naturalistic abiogenesis for examples?

...I used to believe in the Great Spirit of Christianity and the resurrected ascended Lord who listens to humans' prayers. I can certainly think outside of the box. I just have no evidence to justify believing any of it.

No evidence, eh?

These are evidences of a human that physically exists. You think because we attach human characteristics to God to help us understand Him and refer to Him as Him, that He must present physical qualities to be known. Knowing is not just restricted to physically knowing something exists or the physical qualities of that thing. Your having a problem understanding the analogy because you're understanding of what knowing means is limited to what we can know through naturalism. Do you know the character of your wife?

Yes, and I know the character of Severus Snape too. Is that how you know God?

How do you know your wife's character? If she could not audibly speak to you or physically touch you and you could not see her, could you still know her character? Could she still communicate with you?

Do you know love? Have you known love? How do know love?

Love, ah yes, love. It is like music. Do you know music? How do we distinguish between music and noise? I digress. Love like justice and music are human constructs. Quite useful. But somewhat difficult to define and not to be meaningfully extended beyond human society.

With your digression you forgot to answer the question. Do you know love? How do you know love?

There are many different religions which have ecstatic epiphanies much like the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The followers of those religions are as convinced by such experiences as you seem to be about yours.

And I don't necessarily doubt all of them. What I would doubt is whether it was the Holy Spirit.

To paraphrase someone else, if you examine all the reasons why you doubt that it was the Holy Spirit, then you should be able to understand why I doubt the Holy Spirit itself (himself?).

You missed the point. Did these religions even claim their experiences was the Holy Spirit? Let's start with that.

There are always reasons to doubt something. I can doubt my own existence if looked for reasons to doubt my own existence.

[OnceConvinced]

Why did you stop believing if things seemed so much clearer as you say? Usually there's an external reason or series of reasons when such a drastic change takes place. Was there one for you and if so what was it?

I wouldn't say that things ceased to become clear. Like if I talk things through in my mind now , they still seem clear. It's just that before, I attributed the clearness to God.

There were a lot things that lead me away from Christianity, but it was a gradual thing. I became more and more cynical to the point, I no longer believed.

I did believe I knew God's voice and there were times when God seemed to be leading me down a particular path and I was so convinced about it. All these signs seemed to be pointing in the direction. Things seemed to fit together perfectly. For many years, I felt I was able to rely on that. But then around three years ago, I learnt a hard lesson when I found out that on that occassion, it wasn't God. I guess you could say it was a drastic thing, because it made me realise that all those previous times I thought God was guiding me, he wasn't. I was just kidding myself. I don't want to go into details on scenario, but it was a real wake up call for me.

I don't know how someone can believe with out a doubt of any kind especially in the beginning of their walk.

well I was a Christian by default. Brought up in a Christian home. It was taught to me as fact. I believed it. Of course it wasn't until a bit older that I made a genuine commitment to Christ. And later still, at the age of 16, I can still remember telling a mentor of mine "I would never doubt God again" (due to some recent events). I always remember him saying "Oh, but you will." I thought he had slack faith to say something like that. Guess he was right.

But it sounds like you were headed in the right direction. What stopped you?

I can't really pinpoint anything in particular. There were a lot of things. Not seeing him working in my life for many years was another... Seeing prophecies not coming to fruition... taking off the rose-coloured Christian sunglasses and reading the bible...

I'm not sure I understand. You said you experienced the Holy Spirit regularly, but then say it was just the stirring of music and the speaker. Which one was it?

At the time I believed it was the HS. It's now in hindsight that I realise it was the music and the speaker.

There's a distinction I also need to make here. There is baptism in the Holy Spirit and the presence of the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a very unique and quite unmistakeable event. It usually comes first and generally only once. If you needed music, motivational sermons, and primarily had to be in church to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit I would agree with you that probably wasn't the Holy Spirit you were feeling. The Holy Spirit doesn't need gimmicks.

I was baptised in the HS. Up the front of the church with the worship band playing and congregation singing. I would be prepared to bet that that is when most people are baptised in the HS. Or maybe in a prayer meeting, which is very similar. People don't usually experience it outside of those environments. I'd be dubious about anyone claiming they recieved the HS without music playing in the back ground or outside of a hyped up environment like a prayer meeting.

Music is a powerful trigger. That's why speakers always have music playing in the background to give their final words more impact.

Regardless of that, I believed the HS was always in me, guiding me and empowering me.

What changed your mind?

Coming to the realisation that it was all positive thinking, not the HS. I think Christians confuse positive thinking for the HS and negative thinking for the devil. When I look back, I see no difference now. I believe if we have common sense and wisdom, we can chose the right paths ourselves. It's all about action and making things happen.

I'm not sure how the Resurrection of Christ and infallibility must be connected.

Well if the bible is infallible, than the resurrection of Christ may not have happened.

What changed your mind about the resurrection? Was your real faith based in the infallibility of the Bible, perhaps? Did you believe the bible was infallible before you became a Christian or was that conclusion reached after?

I believed the bible was infallible by default. I was taught that by my parents and the church. But it wasn't until I was older that I started to believe it was real, when I thought God was doing things in my life. That's when it seemed to come alive for me. When I started getting involved in ministries, whe I started getting actively involved in worship and prayer. That was when my faith grew strong. It wasn't reliant soley on the bible.

The fallibility of the bible was just one of the things that made me begin to doubt Christ. If the bible isn't all it's cracked up to be in some areas, why should one believe in the resurrection?

Many times. I have been up the front of the church to be prayed for many times, often for areas I felt I was weak. I have prayed to God many times, crying out to him for various reasons, asking for forgiveness when I did wrong, asking for wisdom, asking for revelation, all sorts.

Were these moments primarily restricted to alter calls, Sunday mornings, and Church meetings? More importantly, why did you decide to stop doing this?

No, most of the time it was during my own quiet times. I wouldn't say I ever stopped. Even as my faith crumbled, I begged him many times to restore my faith and to show me that my belief in him wasn't unfounded.

There's no need to get defensive. This thread wasn't about establishing who is or who is not a "true Christian." I believe you are/were sincere.

That's cool, because I often find Christians on sites like this like to point their finger and say "YOU were never a true Christian!".

I don't think you are one of them.

Would it be fair to summarize your responses as thus:

1. No, because I now believe God doesn't exist.

I have a problem with saying "no". Because at the time I sincerely believed I did know God. Even now, I would not say "no" for certain as it is still a possibility that God does exist. I haven't ruled that out entirely.

2. Yes, many.
Check

3. No, because I now believe the Holy Spirit does not exist.
Once again, I have a problem with this. Your questions are "Did you?" not "Do you now believe". In hindsight I would very much doubt it was the HS, but at the time I did believe.

Yes, until what appeared to be errors in the Bible were pointed out.
Nope. It was more than just the infallibility of the bible.

5. No, see number 1.
Once again, I have a problem with your summary. The anwer is "No, if God doesn't exist" The answer is "Yes, if God does exist." I was either humbling myself to an imaginary being or humbling myself to a true bonafide God.

If you believed that you knew God, what made you give up that belief?

I have already gone into some of that. You may possibly get more from this:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=6700

Did God/Christianity change or did you change?

No doubt, I have changed. Probably become more cynical and hard hearted over the years. One could say God may have changed his opinion of me, decided I wasn't worth the effort and decided to leave me to it. I wonder sometimes.

Is it possible that you did have some real experiences with God and were on the right track but you were deceived out of your faith?

I sometimes wonder whether I have been decieved, but the more and more I dig, the more I'm convinced that I am not decieved, in fact by it was Christianity that decieved me to begin with.

Assuming God existed and was testing your faith, would you say you passed or failed?

I can't really answer that. If God is testing me then he's tested me beyond what I can cope with. He set me a test, I can't possibly pass. I also think that if I have failed the test, then God knew I would have failed it before he tested me. I also now believe that God doesn't need to test, because he knows how strong someone's faith is. He's all-knowing right? So I don't buy this testing stuff.

Were there any catalysts that you can recall leading up to your loss of faith?

Yeah, a lot of things. Some I have already gone into. Mainly thinking I knew his voice and realising I didn't. Thinking he was working in my life, but realising he wasn't.

Do you now feel it is your mission (or at least very important) to spread the message that you think Christianity is a lie?

No. But I admit, I do like to challenge people's thinking.

If I am truly honest with myself, the reason I am here (apart from the fact I like to discuss religion) is that I'd really like Christians to convince me that my current views are incorrect. I really do want to be convinced that I was right to spent nearly 30 years of my life following Christ. I don't really want to believe it was all futile. Many here may not believe me when I make those claims, but it's true.

Do you regret making a decision to become a Christian and follow God?

In some ways. I think I missed out on a lot of experiences because I was afraid it would displease God. But then again, I met a lot of great people, developed some great friendships and had a lot of great times. Very few bad experiences really. None that turned me off the church.

I'm truly sorry you fell away from the faith. Perhaps one day you'll try again. I can promise God will be waiting with open arms.

I'm more inclined to think that God, if he does exist is not particuarly interested in me.

[Goat]

Perhaps the problem is that your world view doesn't allow you to think outside the box of naturalism.

I can think outside of the box of naturalism. Plenty of Sci-fi and fantasy are exercises in that...

Like multiverses, black holes, quarks, and naturalistic abiogenesis for examples?

While 'multiverses' are currently speculation, there is direct evidence of black hole,
quarks, and we are currently getting a lot of good information about how abiogenesis is feasible. This is directly opposite for evidence of 'The Holy Spirit'
and the resurrection.

[Goose]

Hi Onceconvinced,

Thanks for the honest response. I've been pretty busy for the last few days so I haven't ignored you. There's a lot in your post to unpack. Some I can understand, some I simply don't agree with. But it probably more appropriate to hammer some of those out in the debate forums.

If I am truly honest with myself, the reason I am here (apart from the fact I like to discuss religion) is that I'd really like Christians to convince me that my current views are incorrect. I really do want to be convinced that I was right to spent nearly 30 years of my life following Christ. I don't really want to believe it was all futile. Many here may not believe me when I make those claims, but it's true.

That's a good sign and all that is really important at this point. There's nothing wrong with doubting or questioning. In fact, I think it can be beneficial in many ways. All hope is not lost. I'm sure the other Christian debaters here will do their best. But I'm sure you realize that we can't convince you of anything. We can only show you the evidence and reasoning behind the views. You of course, must decide for yourself.

I'm truly sorry you fell away from the faith. Perhaps one day you'll try again. I can promise God will be waiting with open arms.

I'm more inclined to think that God, if he does exist is not particuarly interested in me.

Not a chance.

[McCulloch]

I'm truly sorry you fell away from the faith. Perhaps one day you'll try again. I can promise God will be waiting with open arms.

I'm more inclined to think that God, if he does exist is not particularly interested in me.

Not a chance.

I have to agree with Goose here. If you were to convince yourself again that there was a God, then chances are, the God of your imagination would be deeply concerned with you as an individual. Almost every god humanity has ever come up with is, so why would you buck the trend?

[Goose]

I'm truly sorry you fell away from the faith. Perhaps one day you'll try again. I can promise God will be waiting with open arms.

I'm more inclined to think that God, if he does exist is not particularly interested in me.

Not a chance.

I have to agree with Goose here. If you were to convince yourself again that there was a God, then chances are, the God of your imagination would be deeply concerned with you as an individual. Almost every god humanity has ever come up with is, so why would you buck the trend?

Which other major world religions that predate Judeo-Christianity report belief in a god that is "deeply concerned with you as an individual" in the same sense as God is as described in the Bible. Educate me.

[OnceConvinced]

I'm truly sorry you fell away from the faith. Perhaps one day you'll try again. I can promise God will be waiting with open arms.

I'm more inclined to think that God, if he does exist is not particuarly interested in me.

Not a chance.

I've heard it all before Goose and said similar things to others myself .

I don't doubt your sincerity, but do doubt you're in the position to be able to make such assurances.

God wasn't there waiting with open arms all those times I begged him to renew my faith, so why should I believe he is there now? I tried and tried, but got no response. Despite how much I begged, I didn't get a touch from him, a word of any kind, a feeling of his presence, nothing.

I believe it's simply wishful thinking on your part.

[McCulloch]

Which other major world religions that predate Judeo-Christianity report belief in a god that is "deeply concerned with you as an individual" in the same sense as God is as described in the Bible. Educate me.

Sorry, did I limit myself to world religions that predate Judeo-Christianity? I did not mean to.
I should have said, "If you were to convince yourself again that there was a God, then chances are, the God of your imagination would be deeply concerned with you as an individual. Almost every god humanity currently worships does, so why would you buck the trend?"
My mistake.

[Goose]

Which other major world religions that predate Judeo-Christianity report belief in a god that is "deeply concerned with you as an individual" in the same sense as God is as described in the Bible. Educate me.

Sorry, did I limit myself to world religions that predate Judeo-Christianity? I did not mean to.
I should have said, "If you were to convince yourself again that there was a God, then chances are, the God of your imagination would be deeply concerned with you as an individual. Almost every god humanity currently worships does, so why would you buck the trend?"
My mistake.

Oh, alright. Which religions currently profess to worship a god that is "deeply concerned with you as an individual." Let's start with that then.