(jimspeiser - Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:09 pm)
....Yes, I too would like to return to the matter at hand. We've branched out into apologetics, which is an entirely different topic - one I intend to address myself, in an upcoming post.
My opinion on your statement above is that with regard to your original thread topic
How do you know God is the good guy? and apologetics, the two are
inextricably linked. And you did say in your opening remarks: "But it's one thing to accept the Bible as God's word...". Determining if it was or was not, if biblegod "was the good guy", and thus making the bible a valid "moral compass" would involve apologetics, would it not?
Since literalist fundmentalists consider the bible to be the "only way to be "saved""(as per the fear-based cosmic protection racket foisted on its votaries by the church hierocracy for all of these centuries), and the "inerrant" "word" of "perfect" biblegod, this is how they attempt to validate their exclusionist claims as to the "moral compass". Additionally, to some of the fundamentalist Christians, all others, even in some cases including some other Christians who may not subscribe to their particular brand (out of the many dozens of brands) of dogma are also doomed to perdition and "going to "hell"".
My take on the "moral compass" is that, barring no other education or training, it comes from something we call
conscience. I thought it would be interesting to include some data collected from prison populations, which indicates that atheists had proportionally lower incidences of incarceration than those who claimed to be Christians in the particular study referenced below. The following cited from:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
from an article, letter and associated data complied by Rod Swift
I have expanded the figures to provide a % of the total respondents, and I have ranked them (they were presented to me alphabetically). These stats were obtained from their computer on 5 March 1997.
Dear Mr. Swift:
The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious
affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of
inmates per religion category:
Response Number %
---------------------------- --------
Catholic-- 29267-- 39.164%
Protestant-- 26162-- 35.008%
Muslim-- 5435-- 7.273%
American Indian-- 2408-- 3.222%
Nation-- 1734-- 2.320%
Rasta-- 1485-- 1.987%
Jewish-- 1325-- 1.773%
Church of Christ-- 1303-- 1.744%
Pentecostal-- 1093-- 1.463%
Moorish-- 1066-- 1.426%
Buddhist-- 882-- 1.180%
Jehovah Witness-- 665-- 0.890%
Adventist-- 621-- 0.831%
Orthodox-- 375-- 0.502%
Mormon-- 298-- 0.399%
Scientology-- 190-- 0.254%
Atheist-- 156-- 0.209%
Hindu-- 119-- 0.159%
Santeria-- 117-- 0.157%
Sikh-- 14-- 0.019%
Bahai-- - 9-- 0.012%
Krishna-- 7-- 0.009%
---------------------------- --------
Total Known Responses 74731-- 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this)
Unknown/No Answer 18381
----------------------------
Total Convicted 93112 -- 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known.
Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody)
----------------------------
Total In Prisons 96968
I hope that this information is helpful to you.
Sincerely,
Denise Golumbaski
Research Analyst
Federal Bureau of Prisons
Now, let's just deal with the nasty Christian types, no?
Catholic-- 29267-- 39.164%
Protestant-- 26162-- 35.008%
Rasta-- 1485-- 1.987%
Jewish-- 1325-- 1.773%
Church of Christ-- 1303-- 1.744%
Pentecostal-- 1093-- 1.463%
Jehovah Witness-- 665-- 0.890%
Adventist-- 621-- 0.831%
Orthodox-- 375-- 0.502%
Mormon-- 298-- 0.399%
Judeo-Christian Total-- 62594-- 83.761% (of the 74731 total responses)
Total Known Responses-- 74731
Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).
It is also interesting to note that Wiccans, Druids & Kemetic Pagans do not even make this list.
With regard to "the experience", myself and people I know have had what could be termed "Mystical" Experiences. These are not religion-dependent, as they can come to those who are Open to Receive them. Unfortunately for the fundie Christian, this Experience has to be run through the filter of dogma. As I have said before, everyone has the right to choose whatever religion they want to, or to follow no religion at all if that is their choice. The dedication to and devotion to the Divine within, of those who do acknowledge Universal Higher Power/Intelligence, including Pagans, Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. etc. is
respected and unquestioned by this writer. What WILL BE QUESTIONED, however, are exclusionist claims such as "the only true religion", the only "inerrant""word" of God,"the only way to be saved", "going to "hell" if they don't believe it or practice it, the only "moral compass",etc. Such extraordinary claims demand PERFECT proofs, in light of the fact that these claims are for texts said to be "divinely inspired".
(jimspeiser - Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:09 pm)
.....And in spite of your valiant attempts at reconciling Biblical passages with reality, they have fallen far short of the mark......
I concur. In ancient times, precepts and teachings (on the "moral compass", etc.) were encoded in Myth and Religious Drama in Holy Books. As we have seen, problems arise when these are literalized, thus becoming absurd and indefensible. As you pointed out, dogma following from cross-referencing OT Myth with NT pseudepigraphy and Religious Drama can lead to...circularity. Similar Teachings and Precepts existed in many religions of antiquity. The Madonna & Child and the Isis/Osiris/Horus Triad were on the walls of Egypt for millenia before Christianity. Many moral teachings similar to Christianity were in the Eastern religions beforehand. See this interesting site for examples:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Hindu ... luence.htm
(jimspeiser - Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:09 pm)
....I think its obvious from our debates that we skeptics are not about to ease up on our demand that the Bible make sense.....
Indeed. Especially in light of the claims that it is "the only way to be "saved"". Of course, if the book doesn't make sense literally, it's unlikely that derived dogma will either.....
K
