The US Constitution and the Bible

[McCulloch]

It has been asserted here and elsewhere that the Bible was a source for many of the principles and ideas enshrined in the US Constitution. I have read both and frankly I don't see the connection.

Question for debate: Was the Bible a source of inspiration, ideas or principles that guided the writers of the US Constitution? Please be as specific as possible.

For your reference online copies of both documents are available:

• The Bible
• The Constitution of the United States
  The Bill of Right
  The Constitution: Amendments 11-27

[r~]

That's because there is no connection... There is nothing even remotely Christian about the Constitution or the republic founded upon it. For that matter, there is no such thing as a "Christian" form of government - except for a theocracy where Jesus Christ personally reigns on Earth but that is a yet future event.

At least make an attempt to read the thread before you respond. Post 9 for instance.

Like all followers of the beast, it was the Pharisees that looked for a Messiah to impose theocracy. Yet even though Satan tempted Jesus with a theocracy where He would personally reign on Earth; Jesus did not waver from his message of separation of God and Caesar.

It is much more likely that you do not know the spirit than Jesus would fall to that same temptation in the future.

ItS
Peace
r~

Theocracy is Satan's goal.

[Confused]

At least make an attempt to read the thread before you respond. Post 9 for instance.

Moderators Suggestion:
In the spirit of patience and tolerance, can we avoid comments such as these?

[Chancellor]

That's because there is no connection... There is nothing even remotely Christian about the Constitution or the republic founded upon it. For that matter, there is no such thing as a "Christian" form of government - except for a theocracy where Jesus Christ personally reigns on Earth but that is a yet future event.

At least make an attempt to read the thread before you respond. Post 9 for instance.

Like all followers of the beast, it was the Pharisees that looked for a Messiah to impose theocracy. Yet even though Satan tempted Jesus with a theocracy where He would personally reign on Earth; Jesus did not waver from his message of separation of God and Caesar.

It is much more likely that you do not know the spirit than Jesus would fall to that same temptation in the future.

ItS
Peace
r~

Theocracy is Satan's goal.

Don't you EVER presume to take that tone with me!

I responded to a specific post and if you don't like it, too bad!

And instead of making stupid remarks like the one in your post, maybe you should go find out what people are talking about! Note the following from Revelation 20:4

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Again, there is nothing even remotely Christian about the Constitution or the republic founded upon it. For that matter, there is no such thing as a "Christian" form of government - except for a theocracy where Jesus Christ personally reigns on Earth but that is a yet future event.

[opus49]

I'm in the "no Bible in the Constitution" camp. Many of the Founding Fathers were God-fearing men, but I don't see Christianity as an inspiration for the birth of the U.S. I think you had a group of individuals who bristled under England's leadership and recognized the economic potential of the western hemisphere.

I think when it came to drafting the Constitution, reason ruled the day. And scripture and reason don't mix.

[Easyrider]

I'm in the "no Bible in the Constitution" camp. Many of the Founding Fathers were God-fearing men, but I don't see Christianity as an inspiration for the birth of the U.S. I think you had a group of individuals who bristled under England's leadership and recognized the economic potential of the western hemisphere.

I think when it came to drafting the Constitution, reason ruled the day. And scripture and reason don't mix.

You haven't studied the Founding Fathers then. Here's a very small sampling:

Whatever America has evolved into today is a separate issue from what America was in the days of the American Revolution. Where did Americas great strength lie then? And what were the moral foundations of America at its inception? The evidence is overwhelming: the founding fathers tell us that our nation was conceived on the principles of the Biblical God and Christianity. Not on Hinduism, not on Humanism, nor Buddhism, nor the writings of Confucius or Islam, or even Deism, but founded on Biblical and Christian principles.

Here are just some of the facts that are seldom taught in Americas public school classrooms:

The most frequently recognized source for political inspiration for the founding fathers was the Bible, which was referenced in some 34% of the founding fathers quotations.

The first reference to God as the foundation of an American colony was noted in the Mayflower Compact, dated November 11, 1620:

".Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and advancement of
the Christian faith, and the honour of our king and country, a
voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia;
Do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the presence of
God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together
into a Civil Body."

Many of the founding fathers recognized that the principles of civil law were inseparably linked to Biblical truths. James Wilson, one of the original Supreme Court Justices, and a signer of the Constitution, explained,

"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divineFar from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants"

Additionally, the United States Supreme Court specifically recognized America as a Christian nation. In the case "Church of the Holy Trinity vs. the United States" (Feb. 29, 1892, US457-458), Justice Josiah Brewer, following a lengthy and exhaustive search of early American historical literature, commented, "We find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth.that we are a Christian nation."

In another Supreme Court Case, "Zorach vs. Clauson" (1952, US306 307 313), Justice William O. Douglas categorically stated, "We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." Further, in "United States vs. Macintosh" (1931, 283 US 605, 625), Justice George Sutherland affirmed, "We are a Christian people.affording to one another the equal right of religious freedom, and acknowledge with reverence the duty of obedience to the will of God."

At the Constitutional Convention on June 28, 1787, Benjamin Franklin noted: "The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it."

There are many today who believe Franklin was a strict deist, but Franklin here is not only referencing the Bible, but is alluding in part to a teaching by Jesus Christ from Matthew 10:29.

Concerning the outcome of the American Revolution, John Quincy Adams noted, "The highest glory won from the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, John Adams wrote: "The general principles on which the (founding) fathers achieved independence werethe general principles of Christianity."

Founding father Noah Webster proclaimed much the same message when he said, "The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His ApostlesThis is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."

Time after time, the founding fathers declared similar beliefs. From the archives of Patrick Henrys personal notes (handwritten on the back of his copy of the "Stamp Act Resolutions," made public after his death) we read:

"Whether this (new government) will prove a blessing or a curse
will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which
a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise they will be
great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be
miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation."

Thomas Jefferson was hardly speaking from a strict deist standpoint when he said:

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have
removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the
people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are
not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my
country when I reflect that God is just; and that His justice
cannot sleep forever." (Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781)

"I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we
are, who lead our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their
native land and planted them in a country flowing with all
the necessities and comforts of life." (Monday, March 4,
1805, in his 2nd Inaugural Address)

Remember, a strict deist was one who believed God was like a watchmaker, who wound up the universe and thereafter did not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations. Jefferson obviously believed otherwise.

Speaking of Godly principles, Jefferson stated:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never
seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian,
that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
(Jan. 9, 1816 - In a letter to Charles Thomson)

George Washington, the "Father of our Country," likewise recognized God as supremely important in the American dream. In his first inaugural address on April 30, 1789, Washington remarked:

"It would be improper to omit, in this first official act, my
fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over
the universe."

On Saturday, October 3, 1789, President Washington said this in proclaiming a day of national thanksgiving:

"It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the Providence of
Almighty God."

Today, our public schools are in a moral crisis. Washington once noted, "If you remove religious principles from the schools you are going to lose national morality." How prophetic he was!

Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence who was also known as the "Father of Public Schools," once had this to offer: "The only foundation for a republic isreligion. Without it there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty."

Dont miss the significance of that last statement: "..without virtue there can be no liberty." The principle is clear - a lack of virtue engenders bondage. As one writer noted, "Intemperate men can never be free because their passions give rise to their fetters (bindings)." The more liberties a godless people achieve, the more enslaved they ultimately become in their worldly obsessions.

Still another founding father, the Reverend John Witherspoon, mirrored Benjamin Rush when he declared, "Civil liberty cannot long be preserved without virtue."

And finally, lets not forget James Madison, known as the "Chief Architect of U.S. Constitution," who once had this to say:

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the Cross of Christ."

This is just a very short list of thousands of such examples that clearly speak of the Biblical and Christian foundations of our Founding Fathers and early America. Along with these there were the church services in government buildings up to and shortly after the civil war; paid chaplains, government authorized missionaries, reliefs of Moses and the Ten Commandments in the Supreme Court building, and so on and so forth. Whatever moral foundations apart from Christian and Biblical principles one may argue was second, was not even a close second. The record on that is clear.

God bless America.

Recommended readings:

1. Christianity and the Constitution, John Eidsmoe
2. Americas God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, William J. Federer
3. Original Intent, David Barton
4. Faith of our Founding Fathers, Tim LaHaye

[opus49]

You haven't studied the Founding Fathers then. Here's a very small sampling.

I'm surprised by this Easyrider. Up to this point, I haven't noticed you to be one who makes sweeping generalizations about people with an air of arrogance and absolute certainty. Have I offended thee in some way?

Whatever America has evolved into today is a separate issue from what America was in the days of the American Revolution. Where did... <insert paragraph after paragraph of material that will never be read except by its author> ... Tim LaHaye

Well I do know that Thomas Jefferson took the New Testament and cut it up into little pieces. He then put it back together without all of the stuff he deemed unrealistic. And he still found time to knock up a few slaves. What a Christian!

[Easyrider]

Well I do know that Thomas Jefferson took the New Testament and cut it up into little pieces. He then put it back together without all of the stuff he deemed unrealistic. And he still found time to knock up a few slaves. What a Christian!

Yes, he was a funny individual. He denies the supernatural in the NT but then basically endorses OT supernaturalism in this quote of his: ""I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessities and comforts of life." (Monday, March 4, 1805, in his 2nd Inaugural Address)

Somehow God supposedly lost his supernatural ability sometime between the OT and NT.

Jefferson was more of a Unitarian who liked the ethical teachings of Jesus.

[r~]

Don't you EVER presume to take that tone with me!

Or what? Will you CAPITALIZE your words?

And instead of making stupid remarks like the one in your post, maybe you should go find out what people are talking about

I have read the Bible. I know all about what teachers of the law are talking about. I know your mark.

So answer my stupid remarks.

Why would Christ now give into satan and establish a theocracy?

Unless maybe it was enforce:

Love your neighbor as yourself with:
All men are created equal.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's with:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
All men are endowed with the inalienable Right of Liberty.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny of disparage others retained by the People.

ItS
Peace
r~

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising then if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

[OpenedUp]

This will be quite lengthy...

I invite you to my topic: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=6619, of which I will be extracting info for this post.

A better study of the Founding fathers would reveal something much different than what you have outlined:

First off, Thomas Jefferson was a deist. There is really little arguing of that. unfortunately when you quote Jefferson:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never
seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian,
that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

You forget to mention that he was speaking of his OWN document that he created from cutting and pasting parts of the New Testament into one he considered more "precious":

" I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature."
--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816


Your first quote from Jefferson is also out of context. The quote DOES come from Jefferson's "Notes on the State of Virginia":

"For if a slave can have a country in this world, it must be any other in preference to that in which he is born to live and labor for another: in which he must lock up the faculties of his nature, contribute as far as depends on his individual endeavors to the evanishment of the human race or entail his own miserable condition on the endless generations proceeding from him. With the morals of the people, their industry is also destroyed. For in a warm climate, no man will labor for himself who can make another labor for him. This is so true that, of the proprietors of slaves, a very small proportion are ever seen to labor. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure, when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of god? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice can not sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference!"

but Here he is discussing slavery and the "conviction in the minds of the
people that these liberties are the gift of God?" is discussing the diluted mindset that people are endowed by God to own slaves.

The third quote iI will give you. It is quoted from his 2nd Inaugural Address, though it is an interesting juxtaposition from what history knows to be Jefferson's beliefs. Regardless, the piece never mentions the word God or Christianity.
The declaration of Independence (written by Jefferson) also mentions the "law's of nature and of Nature's God" and "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" but again neither of these directly reflects Christianity.

A more proper quote of Jefferson would be this one:

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth"
--Thomas Jefferson, also from Notes on the State of Virginia


As for George Washington he also said this:

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiment in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy which has marked the present age would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination, so far that we should never again see their religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
-- George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, Oct. 20, 1792

Almost all historians will agree that Washington was a Deist in belief. He attended Church very infrequently, leaving before communion. On his death bed he requested neither prayers on his behalf, nor a priest to be brought in.


And Ben Franklin was also a Deist:
""Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist."
--Ben Franklin in his Autobiography

and said in a letter to Ezra Stiles:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity."


It was during John Adam's term as President that he signed the "Treaty of Tripoli" which said exactly this:
"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
--Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11


James Madison said in a letter to William Bradford:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind, and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect."


Thomas Paine (most likely a Deist as well):
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit"
--Both from Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason"


The fact of the matter is that The U.S. was established as a secular nation. Its law is one based on common sense and societal laws established long before Christianity. The problem is that many Christians, when examining their ideals and realizing the similarities, think that they were the first ones to come up with those ideas.

The constititution mentions nothing of God, Christianity, Jesus, or supreme being for that matter.
In fact the first amendment clearly states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

AMERICA IS A SECULAR NATION.


I invite you to look at the link above for more examples including...
-The alteration of the original Pledge of Allegiance
-The introduction of "In God We Trust" to currency
-The "Lemon Test" established in the Supreme court in 1971

[Easyrider]

America a Secular Nation? No way. Certainly not the population.

As for Franklin, he wasn't a true deist.

A true deist was one at the time who believed God created the universe and then sat back and (1) did not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations and, (2) did not give (divine) revelation to man. Franklin did not fit this mold. For instance, Franklin said the following during the Constitutional Convention:

I've lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing Proofs I see of this Truth That God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that except the Lord build the House they labor in vain who build it. I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without his concurring Aid, we shall succeed in this political Building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our Projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a Reproach and Bye word down to future Ages. Speech to the Constitutional Convention (June 28, 1787)

Its pretty obvious that Franklin believed in a God who did involve himself in the affairs of men and nations, and Franklin also alludes to the New Testament as "Sacred Writings" which also reveal Gods revelation to man.

George Washington was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn "above all" was the "religion of Jesus Christ," and that to learn this would make them "greater and happier than they already are"; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that "To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian"; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that "without a humble imitation" of "the Divine Author of our blessed religion" we "can never hope to be a happy nation." Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.

Washington once noted, "If you remove religious principles from the schools you are going to lose national morality." How prophetic he was!

In addition, the inscription on Washington's tomb at Mount Vernon is this:

WITHIN THIS ENCLOSURE REST THE REMAINS OF GENL. GEORGE WASHINGTON." Over the door of the inner tomb is inscribed: "I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE."

James Madison trained for ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, and Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God and in Christ. In fact, for proof of this, one only need read his letter to Attorney General Bradford wherein Madison laments that public officials are not bold enough about their Christian faith in public and that public officials should be "fervent advocates in the cause of Christ." And while Madison did allude to a "wall of separation," contemporary writers frequently refuse to allow Madison to provide his own definition of that "wall." According to Madison, the purpose of that "wall" was only to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion.

Theres more in the following link on all this:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/s ... ourceID=29

Regarding Jefferson, neither was he a true deist.

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have
removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the
people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are
not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my
country when I reflect that God is just; and that His justice
cannot sleep forever." (Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781)

"I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we
are, who lead our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their
native land and planted them in a country flowing with all
the necessities and comforts of life." (Monday, March 4,
1805, in his 2nd Inaugural Address)

There it is: Revealed religion and a belief that God intervenes in the affairs of men and nations.

Many of the founding fathers recognized that the principles of civil law were inseparably linked to Biblical truths. James Wilson, one of the original Supreme Court Justices, and a signer of the Constitution, explained,

"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine...Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants..."

On a number of occasions, the United States Supreme Court specifically recognized America as a Christian nation. In the case "Church of the Holy Trinity vs. the United States" (Feb. 29, 1892, US457-458), Justice Josiah Brewer, following a lengthy and exhaustive search of early American historical literature, commented, "We find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth....that we are a Christian nation...."

In another Supreme Court Case, "Zorach vs. Clauson" (1952, US306 307 313), Justice William O. Douglas categorically stated, "We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." Further, in "United States vs. Macintosh" (1931, 283 US 605, 625), Justice George Sutherland affirmed, "We are a Christian people....affording to one another the equal right of religious freedom, and acknowledge with reverence the duty of obedience to the will of God."

Concerning the outcome of the American Revolution, John Quincy Adams noted, "The highest glory won from the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, John Adams wrote: "The general principles on which the (founding) fathers achieved independence were...the general principles of Christianity."

Founding father Noah Webster proclaimed much the same message when he said, "The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles...This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."

From the archives of Patrick Henry's personal notes (handwritten on the back of his copy of the "Stamp Act Resolutions," made public after his death) we read:

"Whether this (new government) will prove a blessing or a curse
will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which
a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise they will be
great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be
miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation."

Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence who was also known as the "Father of Public Schools," once had this to offer: "The only foundation for a republic is...religion. Without it there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty."

Don't miss the significance of that last statement: "..without virtue there can be no liberty...." The principle is clear - a lack of virtue engenders bondage. As one writer noted, "Intemperate men can never be free because their passions give rise to their fetters (bindings)." The more liberties a godless people achieve, the more enslaved they ultimately become in their worldly obsessions.

Still another founding father, the Christian Reverend John Witherspoon, mirrored Benjamin Rush when he declared, "...Civil liberty cannot long be preserved without virtue...."

I could give you hundreds more but I need to go for now.