Hell

[illuminatus]

Isn't punishment supposed to be beneficial in some way? How is eternal damnation going to teach you anything? Or even if it does teach you something, how are you going to change when you no longer have control over anything and you are forced to burn in flame for eternity? The whole concept changes and the will to change is removed. Logically, eternal damnation makes no sense. The only thing it does is completely eliminate that entity much like capital punishment does in our current legal system.

Except with regard to Christianity you do not have to commit an atrocity. You simply have to not acknowledge the existance of a supreme being.

[justanotherperson]

(Most of this is in the context of Christianity) Alright to settle some issues about the Christian outlook on Hell lets get a few things straight. ALL, yes all, deserve Hell. I say deserve not, are sent to, because not all will be sent there. -Roman 3:23 and Romans 5:12-21 and Eph 2:8- Death in these passages refers to separation from God or Hell.

Both evil doers and "good" doers deserve hell, under the Christian view despite what some of you have been implying; except however through redemption through Christ Jesus.

Next, If you do not believe in Hell or God then this discussion is of no relevance whatsoever to you. If no God, then obviously no Hell.

Next, don't forget to think about the different theories of punishment. There are many and different ones carry their own arguments. For example, Utilitarian form of punishment has one purpose, the greater good. Other theories of punishment may not focus on this. And, besides this point, God will have a different perspective despite our arguing and conversing over what theory we think He may have. (i found it funny that the first page of Introduction to Theories of Punishment was on 666 in my philosophy book)

To the best of my knowledge, the reason hell exist is because of Satan's sin against God which was through pride, thinking himself better than God (Isaiah 14). God is perfect and cannot bear to be with Sin and in some perfect way, hates sin. This is the reason that we must be separated from God upon our death in this life, because we are a sinful people. If however you accepted Christ atonement for your sin, then His perfection took the place of your imperfection through God's eyes.

Still why hell and not just something less torturous? That is a question I am not sure of. I do know that I have examined myself and found that I am very ugly with sin going so deep that I can't bear to look any more. Maybe that is why Hell is so bad, because we are truly disgusting and deserving. Maybe? I know this is not an argument but more of part of my own viewpoint.

Also, despite some teachings, Hell is not supposed to be a form of scare tactic for accepting Christ. Christ wants you to accept Him out of his Love for you shown through the Cross not because it will save you from hell. Hell is simply a consequence of unbelief. -John 3:16-21- (simply is a bit of an understatement but you get the point)

I do know that everything that God does is for His own glory. How hell fits into that picture I do not know.

[Bro Dave]

(Most of this is in the context of Christianity)
I do know that everything that God does is for His own glory. How hell fits into that picture I do not know.

We all suffer from the same exact limitation; Our vision of God is terribly distorted, and way too small! God IS Love. This is our basic truth, and anything that violates it, is therefore UNtrue, no matter the source.
God has no need of "glorification". Why would that which is I-N-F-I-N-I-T-E be in any way needful? When we find God in our hearts, we automatically are filled with paise; That is OUR need! Worship of Father is truly a priviledge, and never an impositon.

Hell? A sick human concept used to frighten stupid humans to do what other slightly smarter humans want done. Anyone who seriously thinks about hell, and is not repulsed by the thought that our loving Father/God would create such a place, really cannot understand His loving nature.

Bro Dave

[chrispalasz]

illuminatus: Isn't punishment supposed to be beneficial in some way? How is eternal damnation going to teach you anything? Or even if it does teach you something, how are you going to change when you no longer have control over anything and you are forced to burn in flame for eternity? The whole concept changes and the will to change is removed. Logically, eternal damnation makes no sense. The only thing it does is completely eliminate that entity much like capital punishment does in our current legal system.

Except with regard to Christianity you do not have to commit an atrocity. You simply have to not acknowledge the existance of a supreme being.

1. I'm a Christian, and let me tell you... not acknowledging Jesus Christ as the supreme being is an atrocity. You may not think so, but law-breakers don't often think what they did was wrong.

2. Hell is retribution more than it is punishment, but it is also punishment.

Similar to Hell, the question can be raised: Why do we have capitol punishment when we also have life imprisonment? They both have the same affect, they both keep killers off the street; but one punishment is considered more sever than the other, yet not less costly.

So what does capitol punishment teach law-breakers? When a person serves multiple life sentences back to back, how is that beneficial since they can never appeal to get out of jail?

[justanotherperson]

We all suffer from the same exact limitation; Our vision of God is terribly distorted, and way too small!

I totally agree, our view of God is limited, but I also think that our best view of him comes from the Bible (speaking of Christianity).

God IS Love. This is our basic truth, and anything that violates it, is therefore UNtrue, no matter the source.

I also agree that God is love based upon the Bible which I believe personally is basic truth. -II Tim 3:16- You, however take some of the Bible as truth and not all of it:

ME: Stop right there! I believe in the wonderful sagaious parts of the Bible, and love the Psalms etc., but the myths are for me, like kindergqarden material, which needs to be understood more deeply when we achieve some maturity. The Bible is a compilation of books, voted into it by very mortal men. The lack of consistancy, and the very human attributes ascribed to our Perfect Father/God, cry out against its being divine.

So, are you saying that the Bible violates itself with concepts of Hell and other things that you don't think a righteous, loving God would do? Also with the above quote, how else can we describe God but with Human attributes, it is all that we know, we have no reasoning ability to think of God in any other way because we have never experienced anything other way than Human. Yes, God is more than our human attributes ascribe to Him, but, that is all we have for now.

I and many other Christians would argue that you either take the Bible or leave it. I would urge against just taking parts you feel comfortable with and just leaving the rest to myth. Similarly, dealing with purgatory, which you spoke of earlier, it is not Biblically based but is founded on Catholic doctrine.

God has no need of "glorification". Why would that which is I-N-F-I-N-I-T-E be in any way needful?

I would agree that God is not needful and is truly infinite. But I would argue that God wants certain things, He for sure did not make us in His image just for fun. God does not need glorification but I think He desires it. There is a difference there. God does not HAVE to do anything, but does so because He wants to, at least I feel that way.

[Bro Dave]

So, are you saying that the Bible violates itself with concepts of Hell and other things that you don't think a righteous, loving God would do?

To me it seems entirely reasonable that anything that fails to meet even my lowly anmialistic standards, surely are unacceptalbe to God, who after all, made me, and gave me those standards as a place to start.

Also with the above quote, how else can we describe God but with Human attributes, it is all that we know, we have no reasoning ability to think of God in any other way because we have never experienced anything other way than Human. Yes, God is more than our human attributes ascribe to Him, but, that is all we have for now.

Thanks you. We have an area of agreement. However, to in any way attempt to anthropromorphise God backwards into having base animalistic charistics, is child like, and humorous!

I and many other Christians would argue that you either take the Bible or leave it. I would urge against just taking parts you feel comfortable with and just leaving the rest to myth.

Truth is not limited to any single source, and certainly not to any single book. God would simply never place such an access limitation on His truth. Secondly, God would never place all His truth in anything so vulnerable to human mis translation, misinterpertationm and outright tamering! Look! you will find God's truth EVERYWHERE!

Similarly, dealing with purgatory, which you spoke of earlier, it is not Biblically based but is founded on Catholic doctrine.

I didn't say I subscribed to the Catholic version of purgatory, I was simply stating that purgatory at least made some logical sense, where as hell does not.

ME: God has no need of "glorification". Why would that which is I-N-F-I-N-I-T-E be in any way needful?

I would agree that God is not needful and is truly infinite. But I would argue that God wants certain things, He for sure did not make us in His image just for fun.

If I may interject here, you and I have no possible way of beginning to understand the depth of why God did/does anything. However, my understanding is that we are his escape from his own absoluteness. He created us, that he might participate in our growth, and experience our unmandated growing Love for him.

God does not need glorification but I think He desires it. There is a difference there. God does not HAVE to do anything, but does so because He wants to, at least I feel that way.

God created this Universe, that he might share it with us, and, if we are willing, to go adventuring with us on through ETERNITY! WOW, what a wonderful loving Father we have!


Bro Dave

[MagusYanam]

As a universalist, I am shocked to see how many 'Christians' still believe that Hell exists for those who die before they can be shown salvation. It is said, after all, in Isaiah (45:22-3) 'Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth... unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear', and in Hosea (11:9) that 'I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city'.

The Gospel of St. Luke even makes the bold assertion (3:6) that 'all flesh shall see the salvation of God'. St. John (3:17) stated that 'God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved'.

The core of the Scriptures all support that all good, ultimately, shall be requited with good, and evil also with good - for such is the nature of God. Not that it is not incumbent on us to do good - to the contrary, we must do all we can to further the grace of God in the world and depend on God to do what we cannot.

[dangerdan]

ALL, yes all, deserve Hell

Errr, forgive my ignorance, but why exactly did God, in her unparalleled grace and compassion, set the default-afterlife-setting to “burn in hell”?

Was it because Eve ate an apple?

I do know that everything that God does is for His own glory.

e·go·ism
n.

-The ethical doctrine that morality has its foundations in self-interest.
-The ethical belief that self-interest is the just and proper motive for all human conduct.
-Excessive preoccupation with one's own well-being and interests, usually accompanied by an inflated sense of self-importance.

I'm a Christian, and let me tell you...

Hehehe, please forgive me GreenLight311, but this little quip was just so delightfully you.

... not acknowledging Jesus Christ as the supreme being is an atrocity. You may not think so, but law-breakers don't often think what they did was wrong.

I love this reasoning. I believe it can, correct me if I’m wrong, prove anything!

Lets try it out –

“Not acknowledging dangerdan is the most handsome man in the world is an atrocity…You may not think so, but law-breakers don’t often think what they did was wrong.”

I love it!

[justanotherperson]

First off: Sorry for not responding in a reasonable time frame, I have been busy with many things for a long time.

Truth is not limited to any single source, and certainly not to any single book. God would simply never place such an access limitation on His truth. Secondly, God would never place all His truth in anything so vulnerable to human mis translation, misinterpertationm and outright tamering! Look! you will find God's truth EVERYWHERE!

I assume that you know or believe the TRUTH when you state absolutes such as these. I may state absolutes in my work but I truly believe that there is one truth and only one truth. But your truth sounds like relativism to me. Be careful of relativism.

Bro Dave wrote: God has no need of "glorification". Why would that which is I-N-F-I-N-I-T-E be in any way needful?

Justanotherperson wrote: I would agree that God is not needful and is truly infinite. But I would argue that God wants certain things, He for sure did not make us in His image just for fun.

Bro Dave wrote: If I may interject here, you and I have no possible way of beginning to understand the depth of why God did/does anything. However, my understanding is that we are his escape from his own absoluteness. He created us, that he might participate in our growth, and experience our unmandated growing Love for him.

I understand God to the extent of what he has revealed in His Word. In Psalms 19:1 it says, speaking of creation: "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." And in Isaiah 43:6 it says: "Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yes, I have made him."

Again, I do not feel that God created us to meddle with us but to the praise of His glory. If you were to see God in the flesh, you would have no reaction but to praise Him. There is a reason for that.

So again I say.
God does not need glorification but I think He desires it. There is a difference there. God does not HAVE to do anything, but does so because He wants to; for if not, we would not be here.

[justanotherperson]

As a universalist, I am shocked to see how many 'Christians' still believe that Hell exists for those who die before they can be shown salvation. It is said, after all, in Isaiah (45:22-3) 'Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth... unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear', and in Hosea (11:9) that 'I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city'.

I don't believe you are coming even close to getting this stuff in the right context. In Hosea, God is talking about a specific people in a specific time period and not destroying them. In Isaiah, what happens if I choose not to look to God, then, I will not be saved. It is clearly saying that. It even says it in the next verse that you list below in John 3:17 THROUGH 18 and the rest of the chapter

The Gospel of St. Luke even makes the bold assertion (3:6) that 'all flesh shall see the salvation of God'. St. John (3:17) stated that 'God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved'.

In Luke, Just because all flesh will see the salvation of God does not mean that all will come to experience it. Unfortunately, all who are told of salvation do not accept it and therefore do not experience it. The Bible clearly states that salvation clearly comes by faith in Christ unto His resurrection.

[BLanE]

[quote)
Truth is not limited to any single source, and certainly not to any single book. God would simply never place such an access limitation on His truth. Secondly, God would never place all His truth in anything so vulnerable to human mis translation, misinterpertationm and outright tamering! Look! you will find God's truth EVERYWHERE!


Have you ever read anything about the impressive preservation of scripture? Also, God has chosen you and I to "Go into all the world", if he places His truths in us, why is it so hard to believe that he would place his truth in a book written by those like us?