The god that was imposed upon me when I was growing up was not a fleeting one that I could call upon in times of need nor a spiritualist one that I could use for comfort. My god was one that was supervising my every move and left me with no right to question his existence or the authority of those who acted in his behalf. I am 63 years old now. I have educated myself over the decades. But even today I dare not bring up any doubts about the existence of this only one true god with my siblings or most friends without exposing myself as a pitiful blasphemous ingrate with no hope of redemption.
I am joining this debate group in search of a platform where I can expose my views and listen to others. I need some solace from people who more or less reason things out the way I do, but I also need to understand why so many intelligent people seem to defend beliefs that at this point should be considered as proven wrong. An example is the belief that the universe was created in six days about six thousand years ago with the work declared "finished" on the seventh day.
Self-introduction - cfiott
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otseng
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Post #2
Welcome to the forum cfiott!
As for theism proven wrong, I have yet to see a strong case for this. Whereas for the evidence for a God, I'm actually in the process of writing up a seminar for it.
We have quite a diverse set of beliefs here. I think you'll be be able to find someone here who you can associate with.I need some solace from people who more or less reason things out the way I do, but I also need to understand why so many intelligent people seem to defend beliefs that at this point should be considered as proven wrong.
As for theism proven wrong, I have yet to see a strong case for this. Whereas for the evidence for a God, I'm actually in the process of writing up a seminar for it.
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OnceConvinced
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Welcome cfiott. I see you have been a silent observer for a while now. Hope to see more of you in the forums.
Post #4
I know we can't prove theism wrong. That's like trying to prove belief in UFOs wrong. We can disprove individual sightings of UFOs, but we can never prove that the belief in their existence is wrong no matter how farfetched this belief might be. It is possible to prove that an abstract or invisible thing exists, but it is not possible to prove that it doesn't. So it is incumbent upon theists to prove the existence of god, not upon atheists to disprove it.
But we can prove a story or an assertion wrong. I believe that at least two Biblical accounts - the creation and the great flood - are scientifically false.
But we can prove a story or an assertion wrong. I believe that at least two Biblical accounts - the creation and the great flood - are scientifically false.
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Zzyzx
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Post #5
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My life experience has been quite different from yours. I was never inclined to care whether others approved of my decisions – so I openly did whatever seemed appropriate. Family and friends often disagreed or disapproved – and learned that I couldn’t care less whether they agreed or disagreed with my decisions. My dear old mother, deceased now twenty years or so, really wished I would be a little less irreverent – but learned to accept her maverick eldest son without wasting effort trying to convince me to believe in invisible super beings.
There is no reason to prove theism “wrong”. Instead, we can go our own path, let theists believe as they wish and watch them attempt to prove their beliefs “right”. In logical discussion or debate a person who makes claims is expected to substantiate those claims or withdraw them. Of course, theists are not inclined to accept such logic – and are very inclined to use argumentum ad ignorantum – “my claims are valid unless proven wrong”. That must be the only way that supernaturalism and magic can be defended.
I have yet to engage in serious debate with a theist and not have them depend upon argumentum ad ignorantum. There are a few, very few, theist members of this forum who present sound and strong arguments. The most vocal are not necessarily the most capable.
Religionists seem compelled to announce their beliefs in public and to promote their brand of religion as “the one true path” and to declare that all gods other than theirs are “false”. There must be ego satisfaction or profit in proselytization.
Hang around, make yourself comfortable and join in the debates as you see fit.
Zzyzx
Welcome to the forum "old timer" -- I am a few years older than you and we are a lot older than many members. The bulk of members appear to be between twenty and fifty.cfiott wrote:I know we can't prove theism wrong. That's like trying to prove belief in UFOs wrong. We can disprove individual sightings of UFOs, but we can never prove that the belief in their existence is wrong no matter how farfetched this belief might be. It is possible to prove that an abstract or invisible thing exists, but it is not possible to prove that it doesn't. So it is incumbent upon theists to prove the existence of god, not upon atheists to disprove it.
But we can prove a story or an assertion wrong. I believe that at least two Biblical accounts - the creation and the great flood - are scientifically false.
My life experience has been quite different from yours. I was never inclined to care whether others approved of my decisions – so I openly did whatever seemed appropriate. Family and friends often disagreed or disapproved – and learned that I couldn’t care less whether they agreed or disagreed with my decisions. My dear old mother, deceased now twenty years or so, really wished I would be a little less irreverent – but learned to accept her maverick eldest son without wasting effort trying to convince me to believe in invisible super beings.
There is no reason to prove theism “wrong”. Instead, we can go our own path, let theists believe as they wish and watch them attempt to prove their beliefs “right”. In logical discussion or debate a person who makes claims is expected to substantiate those claims or withdraw them. Of course, theists are not inclined to accept such logic – and are very inclined to use argumentum ad ignorantum – “my claims are valid unless proven wrong”. That must be the only way that supernaturalism and magic can be defended.
I have yet to engage in serious debate with a theist and not have them depend upon argumentum ad ignorantum. There are a few, very few, theist members of this forum who present sound and strong arguments. The most vocal are not necessarily the most capable.
Religionists seem compelled to announce their beliefs in public and to promote their brand of religion as “the one true path” and to declare that all gods other than theirs are “false”. There must be ego satisfaction or profit in proselytization.
Hang around, make yourself comfortable and join in the debates as you see fit.
Zzyzx
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
