Evidence for the Resurrection

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Goose

Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #1

Post by Goose »

In my opinion, when determining the truthfulness of Christianity virtually everything is secondary in importance to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (the Rez). Paul made this clear when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:14, "if Christ has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing." I believe the truthfulness of Christianity hangs primarily on the Rez.

I also believe there is a solid case for the Rez that meets a reasonable burden of proof for matters of history. Equal, at least, to that which we accept for other pivotal events in ancient history accepted as true and rarely questioned.

As indicated by the spectrum of the below quoted scholars and historians, I propose we can be reasonably certain some historical "facts" are probably true regardless of our philosophical predispositions. We can then look at theories that account for those facts.

The Methodology:

A "fact" shouldn't necessarily need to pass all of the listed criteria to be considered probable. Failing any one particular criterion does not necessarily make the fact false. Indeed very few, if any at all, ancient historical "facts" we rarely question would adequately pass all the requests of such a rigorous criteria as set out below. However, a fact that fails to pass a single criterion we would be justified in believing it to be improbable. Passing one or two should be sufficient to have the "fact" be at least considered probable. If a fact passes three I think we can be confident that it is very probable and so on. This methodology is not fool-proof of course as it is open to our biases and ultimately subjective to a degree. However, this seems to be the only way (I know of) to establish a reasonably objective treatment of evidence - i.e. pass the evidence through a standard set of criteria using a consistent methodology that can be applied to ALL ancient events. So, using criteria such as (but not limited to)...
  • 1. Eyewitness attestation
    2. Early attestation (the earlier the better - written during the lifetime of possible eyewitnesses is preferred)
    3. Multiple independent attestation (independent does not mean non-Christian, but rather independent from other sources)
    4. Enemy or neutral source attestation
    5. The Principle of Embarrassment (If it's embarrassing or harmful to the case it is very likely that it is authentic or actually happened. It's very unlikely to have been propaganda simply “made up”)
Marcus J. Borg, a liberal theologian and "fellow" of the Jesus Seminar wrote, "The logic is straightforward: if a tradition appears in an early source and in another independent source, then not only is it early, but it is also unlikely to have been made up." Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus (1999), p. 12.

Historian Paul Maier notes, "Many facts from antiquity rest on just one ancient source, while two or three sources in agreement generally render the fact unimpeachable." Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks a Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church (1991), p. 197.


As a side note, I’m confident we can reconcile alleged contradictions in the NT, demonstrate traditional authorship of the Gospels/Acts (i.g. The disciple Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew and so on. Just as we would for any other ancient document, see here ), and demonstrate the synoptics were written before 70AD. However, we'll forgo debate over the preceding to avoid rabbit trails and make it more of a challenge for the Rez theory. So, for the sake of argument in this thread we will assume:
  • 1. The Bible is errant and not inspired by God. We'll consider it merely a collection of ancient writings.
    2. The Gospels/Acts are technically anonymous and may or may not be eyewitness accounts.
    3. The Gospels and other Christian/non-Christian accounts contain minor errors and contradictions in secondary details.
    4. The Gospels/Acts were written after 70AD, but no later than 100AD.
    5. Mark was the first Gospel written. The authors of Luke and Matthew used some of Mark as a source for their Gospels.

We could submit many, but to start, here are 5 "facts" that should pass enough of the listed criteria to be considered probable:

FACT 1. Jesus’ crucifixion and death
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from the Apostle Paul - (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 2:15; 1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2 and early creedal passages in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - ca. 50-60AD)
    b) Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
    c) Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
    d) Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
    e) Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
    f) Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Lüdemann acknowledged, "Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable." Gerd Ludemann, The Resurrection of Christ, pg 50.

The critical NT scholar and Jesus Seminar co-founder John Dominic Crossan wrote, "Jesus’ death by execution under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For, if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus...We have, in other words, not just Christian witnesses but one major Jewish and one major pagan historian who both agree on three points concerning Jesus: there was a movement, there was an execution because of that movement, but, despite that execution, there was a continuation of the movement." John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?, pg. 5

Crossan also said, "Despite the differences between the studied impartiality of Josephus and the sneering partiality of Tacitus, they agree on three rather basic facts. First, there was some sort of a movement connected with Jesus. Second, he was executed by official authority presumably to stop the movement. Third, rather than being stopped, the movement continued to spread. There remain, therefore, these three: movement, execution, continuation. But the greatest of these is continuation." John Dominic Crossan, The Essential Jesus, p. 7.

John P. Meier wrote, "For two obvious reasons practically no one would deny the fact that Jesus was executed by crucifixion: (1) This central event is reported or alluded to not only by the vast majority of NT authors, but also by Josephus and Tacitus...(2) Such an embarrassing event created a major obstacle to converting Jews and Gentiles alike...that the Church struggled to overcome..." (John P. Meier, "The Circle of the Twelve: Did It Exist during Jesus' Public Ministry?", Journal of Biblical Literature 116 [1997] p. 664–665).


FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
  • a) Early attestation from Paul - he implies an empty tomb (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (the very early Pre-Markan Passion source probably contained the empty tomb)
    c) The disciples were accused of stealing Jesus’ body by unbelieving Jews - indirect enemy confirmation that the tomb was empty (Matthew 28, Christian apologist Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 108 - ca. 150AD; Christian apologist Tertullian De Spectaculis 30 - ca. 200AD)
    d) The principle of embarrassment applies to the empty tomb reported as having been discovered by women
    e) We have no record of Jesus’ corpse being produced only accusations that the disciples stole the body.
    f) Setting the stage for the empty tomb was the honourable burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimethea (another fact we could admit as number 6 - but won't as it isn't really necessary to do so). It is attested by all four Gospels. As well Paul mentions the burial of Jesus(1 Cor 15). It also is strengthened by the Principle of Embarrassment where a Jewish member of the council, rather than a disciple or family member, that condemned Jesus was reported as honourably burring Jesus. This would have been offensive to the disciples and as such is unlikely to be a fabrication.
Liberal theologian John A. T. Robinson commented on the burial of Jesus, "[it is] one of the earliest and best–attested facts about Jesus." John A. T. Robinson, The Human Face of God (1973), p. 131.

William Wand, a past Oxford University church historian wrote, "All the strictly historical evidence we have is in favour [of the empty tomb], and those scholars who reject it ought to recognize that they do so on some other grounds than that of scientific history." William Wand, Christianity: A Historical Religion? (1972), p. 93-94

NT critic D. H. Van Daalen wrote, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions." D.H. Van Daalen, The Real Resurrection(1972), p. 41.


FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:

Claims of appearances to the disciples:
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from Paul (1 Cor. 15:4-8)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (even without the later addition of 16:9-20, early attestation in Mark's Gospel predicts the Rez and appearances in 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 and suggests there will be appearances made by Jesus 14:28, 16:6-7)
    c) Multiple attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 1-5, 10, 13, 17)
    d) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Tacitus (he may be inadvertently providing evidence that the apostles at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Annals 15:44 when he says, "...[Christianity] thus checked for the moment [by the crucifixion of Jesus], again broke out not only in Judea...")
    e) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Josephus (he may be reporting that the disciples at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Antiquities 18)
    f) The Principle of Dissimilarity applies to the notion of a man/Messiah resurrecting from the dead before the end of time was contrary to Jewish belief and therefore reduces the odds it was "made up."
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the evidence that some disciples at the first instance did not believe but had doubts that Jesus was alive (Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:36-38, John 20:24-25).



Persecution and death of some disciples:
  • a) Early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 12 - death of James brother of John)
    b) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5 - ca. 95AD)
    c) Attestation from Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 3:2-3 - ca. 110AD)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9 - ca. 110AD)
    e) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (ca. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 - ca. 200AD)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Contra Celsum 2:56,77 - ca. 230-250AD)
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Ludemann said, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Gerd Ludemann, What Really Happened to Jesus? A Historical Approach to the Resurrection, (1995) p. 80. (It should be noted Ludemann believes these were visions)

Paula Fredriksen, a sceptical historian and scholar of religious studies, said in an interview with Peter Jennings (ABC) entitled The Search for Jesus in July 2000, "I know in [the disciples] own terms what they saw was the raised Jesus. That's what they say and then all the historic evidence we have afterwards attest to their conviction that that's what they saw. I'm not saying that they really did see the raised Jesus. I wasn't there. I don't know what they saw. But I do know that as a historian that they must have seen something."



FACT 4. Paul, an enemy and persecutor of the church (Acts 8:3, 1 Cor. 15:9, Gal. 1:13) was transformed and became a prolific apostle because of his belief that a risen Jesus appeared to him. He was persecuted and reported as martyred.

Appearances of Jesus to Paul and his conversion:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul himself (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1, Phil. 3)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 9, 22, 26)
Paul’s suffering/martyrdom:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul for his suffering (2 Cor. 11, Phil. 1)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from Book of Acts (ch. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 23)
    c) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9:2)
    e) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 and also quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:25:8)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Commentary on Genesis as quoted by Eusebius in EH 3:1)
FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
  • a) Principle of Embarrassment applies as Jesus' own family and brother James were described as sceptical prior to appearances (multiply attested - Matthew 13:57, Mark 3:21, 6:3-4, John 7:4-5)
    b) Jesus appeared alive to James after His death (early and enemy attestation from Paul - 1 Cor. 15:7)
    c) James is later described as an apostle by Paul(Gal 1:19) and leader in the early church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:9,12 and Acts 15)
    d) Suffered and martyred - Enemy/neutral attestation from Josephus (ca. 96AD - Antiquities 20), further multiple attestation from Hegesippus (ca. 160AD - as quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:23), and Clement of Alexandria (ca. 180-200AD as quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:1).

Note that none of these 5 facts are supernatural or hard to believe on their own. They are all well attested with early and multiple sources. By any reasonable historical methodology these should be considered solid facts. Keep in mind on their own each fact presented does not build a strong case for the Rez. However, it is as a collective unit we must consider the evidence. We are looking for the best explanation that accounts for ALL the evidence. I posit the theory that God resurrected Jesus from the dead best accounts for ALL the evidence and combines explanatory power and scope given the context of Jesus' life and the claims made of Him and by Him.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?


Additional considerations and requests:
1. Persons who side with the weight of evidence, what the evidence suggests, and cogent arguments supported by good evidence could be described as taking a rational position. We would be justified in deeming "irrational" a position that denies evidence with out good reason and opposes strong arguments to side with weak unsupported arguments. On this, we can all agree.

2. As history deals more with degrees of probability rather than absolute certainty I would suggest the following. A single theory that has explanatory scope and power, given the context of surrounding events, and accounts for ALL the evidence should be considered more probable over a compilation of several theories stacked upon one another in an ad hoc manner. Especially if those ad hoc theories are speculation rich and evidence poor.

3. Please supply the methodology/criteria for questioning any one of these 5 facts (or any other evidence one wishes to refute or admit for consideration). We can then apply this methodology to other ancient historical facts. This will help us determine if the objection has credibility or is merely stemming from a bias against either the supernatural or Christianity. Simply making the objection, for example, that we cannot trust anything written by a Christian because they were biased is very problematic. Applying that overly simplistic criterion to the rest of ancient history would call almost all of it into question (even most of modern history).

I'll look forward to reading the responses. O:)

Goose

Post #11

Post by Goose »

Zzyzx wrote:Perhaps it would be useful to first determine if a supposed godman is a fictional character or one who actually lived...
Apparently Zzyzx does not need to provide evidence or methodology nor back his assertions, though he continually requests this from Christians.

Zzyzx simply wants to dismiss all the evidence and call it fictional thus taking a trip down the intellectually bankrupt road of the Jesus-myther. I see no need to indulge this wishful thinking and join him for the stroll.

Next...

Goose

Re: Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #12

Post by Goose »

McCulloch wrote:You cannot call Paul enemy attestation. By the time he was attesting, he was by no means an enemy. He was preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified...
So what? Paul himself tells us that he was an enemy, so does the writer of Acts. Paul WAS an enemy at some point, I think that's what matters. Whether he is writing before or after his conversion is irrelevent (unless you want to imply that he was biased and untrustworthy as a Christian). But, I won't be difficult. Let's remove the "enemy" part for this piece of evidence if it bothers you. It's still very early.
McCulloch wrote:...[Paul's] accounts are almost all somewhat spiritualized with surprisingly no reference to any of Jesus' alleged activities on Earth.
Rubbish and a Red Herring. This sounds like a Jesus-myther argument you're presenting. Paul received his information from eyewitnesses to Jesus' life John, Peter, and James (Galatians ch. 1). It's very early attestation to Jesus' death by crucifixion from Paul.

1Thes 2:14-15 For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.

1Thes 5:9-10 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 Cor 1:22-23 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles...

1 Cor 15:3-4 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried...

Those sound distinctly like references to a physical person that was killed, wouldn't you agree?

Goose wrote:Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
McCulloch wrote:Perhaps biased but certainly somewhat early, if you all at least 40 years after the fact early. Do you remember correctly stuff that happened 40 years ago?
40 years by ancient standards is practically a news flash. I may not remember the nitty-gritty details 40 years from now (I'm not even 40, yet :eyebrow: ) of "stuff" that happens today. But I'm darn sure I'd remember my experiences of encountering a once dead friend that I saw alive again. Wouldn't you?
Goose wrote:Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
McCulloch wrote:Josephus' alleged material about the crucifixion is highly suspect.
There are many scholars that hold, at the very least, Josephus attests to Jesus existence and death by crucifixion. That's all we're saying at this point.
Goose wrote:Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
McCulloch wrote:Tacitus can only prove that there were Christians, he says nothing about Jesus
Are you sure about that? Tacitus:"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
Goose wrote:Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
McCulloch wrote:Lucian proves that Christians of the era believed in Jesus' crucifixion
Lucian is an enemy/neutral source that shows in his era it was an accepted historical fact that the founder of Christianity who was worshipped as a god was crucified. It's early, by ancient standards, enemy/neutral attestation. Do you have ANY evidence that counters this? Come to think of it, do have any evidence what-so-ever that Jesus was not crucified?

Goose wrote:Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
McCulloch wrote:The alleged attestation from the Talmud is ambiguous at best, as shown by Gil Student at The Jesus Narrative in the Talmud.
Gil Student?"Gil Student is listed in the 2005 alumni directory as a rabbi and a quantitative analyst who works in financial reinsurance..." Maybe I should link to some part time Christian apologists/pastors that are librarians and such. I'm not surprised that a link to a Jewish source would deny the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, the Jewish polemic in the Talmud would hardly have ensued over a mythical figure. It assumes Jesus was a real historic person. The conclusion to the article in your link suggests this as well:
"It seems clear by now that there is no consensus whether Jesus is mentioned at all in the Talmud...However, there can be no denying, and no rabbi would deny this, that the authors of the Talmud did not believe in Jesus' messiahship or his divinity..."
And they didn't deny Jesus' existence or crucufixion either. It's an enemy source that accepted Jesus and his crucufixion as historical in as much as it didn't expressly deny it.

Regarding Sanhedrin 43a
This is one of the (few early) passages that Goldstein judges to be a possibly authentic reference to Jesus. He identifies two difficulties: the details do not fit well with the gospel accounts, and Yeshu / Yeshua / Yeshoshua (all forms of the same name) was an extremely common name. In its favor, the fact that this Yeshu is executed around Passover, as was Jesus, makes it less likely that it intends some other Yeshu/a. Differences in detail probably simply reflect a tradition widely divergent from the Christian gospels. There is, as with many of these stories, the strong possibility that stories about other Yeshu/as or accused magicians have mingled with authentic Jesus traditions to create a new story. The story is hard to date with any confidence, but it cannot be later than about 220, CE (Goldstein:29).Goldstein, Morris,Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, (1950)
However for the sake of argument, I will concede that the Talmud has a very limited use to us.
Goose wrote:Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
McCulloch wrote:The principle of embarrassment seems embarrassingly the strongest argument in favour of declaring Jesus' crucifixion as fact.
I'll make you a deal. You find another historical figure from around the time of Christ that has more quality, quantity, and earlier sources for the manner in which he/she died and I'll concede that the evidence for Christ's death by crucifixion is embarrassingly weak. OK?

katiej49 wrote:you are not depending on just ONE persons writings, but on many. you wouldnt necessarily take the word of just one, but would you of many who say the same thing?
McCulloch wrote:Four is not many.
By ancient standards, four sources written during the life of witnesses is actually a land slide. In fact, I would go as far as saying this is Extraordinary evidence.
McCulloch wrote:The multiple attestation evidence is somewhat reduced when it appears as if large parts of the material was copied almost verbatim from other copies of the tale.
I already gave you Markan priority. Let's take a really extreme position and say Matthew and Luke sat at a table one afternoon, rolled out a 30 foot peice of papyrus and copied verbatim every word from Mark. There is still another source needed then to fill the gaps. So we'll take another extreme position and say "Q" (and possibly "M" and "L" as well) is a real document. You now have Mark, Q, Paul, and John to contend with. That's four independent sources. Three of which are very early and John somewhat early.


I'm not sure why you've only chosen to tackle this fact (Jesus' death by crucifixion). Are you advocating the Swoon Theory? You've also not attempted to answer the question for debate or provide any methodology. Why?

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?

Goose

Post #13

Post by Goose »

Cmass wrote:To the OP: The "evidence" and supporting logic provided are not nearly as persuasive as for the existence of UFOs and little green men...
Your UFO Red Herring is noted. If the evidence and logic for the Rez is so pathetic you should have no problem decimating the case with a couple of well thought sentences.

Goose

Post #14

Post by Goose »

This is actually disappointing. No one has even attempted to address the question for debate.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?

Zzyzx
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Post #15

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Goose wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:Perhaps it would be useful to first determine if a supposed godman is a fictional character or one who actually lived...
Apparently Zzyzx does not need to provide evidence or methodology nor back his assertions, though he continually requests this from Christians.
Kindly quote the exact assertions that Zzyzx has made for which evidence or methodology should be provided.
Goose wrote:Zzyzx simply wants to dismiss all the evidence and call it fictional thus taking a trip down the intellectually bankrupt road of the Jesus-myther.
Correction: Zzyzx has asked for evidence that the godman existed, died, and came back to life.

The existence of the godman has not been confirmed from extra-biblical sources. Death has not been confirmed from extra-biblical sources.

Thus, there is no assurance that “resurrection” is claimed for anything more than a mythical character.
Goose wrote:I see no need to indulge this wishful thinking and join him for the stroll.
What you choose to do is of no significance whatever to me. I address my comments to rational readers who are capable of evaluating the merit of what is said in these threads.

It would seem as though “wishful thinking” pertains to the religionist view of “salvation” in an “afterlife” (being saved from a “hell” proposed by religionists) in return for worshiping a “savior” that has not been shown to have existed in reality.

I appreciate the elitism displayed by many Christians and the emotion with which they attempt to “defend the faith”. Ad hominem attacks are helpful also – to demonstrate the negative aspects of Christianity – divisiveness, hostility, anger, elitism, rage, etc (all patterned after the gods depicted in the bible).

Not only are religionist arguments shallow and single sourced, they are dependent upon attacking people rather than ideas. That is expected since religionist ideas are indefensible using reason, reality and common sense.

Invisible super beings and nature-defying “miracles” may appeal to some; however, as evident in these threads, there is no support for the existence or occurrence of either (though emotional defenses abound).

I appreciate all Christian assistance in my objective of demonstrating the lack of reason in religionist “arguments” such as, “Believe on faith alone” the tales of Bronze Age storytellers and writers. Or put all your faith in a book that was compiled by unknown churchmen from the writings of unknown or incompletely identified writers, repeating tales told by unidentified people, of incredible events and conversations that supposedly happened decades or generations earlier – and then modified, translated, transcribed, revised, and rewritten by MAN – and still revered as though it represents “the word of god”.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

Goose

Post #16

Post by Goose »

Goose wrote:Apparently Zzyzx does not need to provide evidence or methodology nor back his assertions, though he continually requests this from Christians.
Zzyzx wrote:Kindly quote the exact assertions that Zzyzx has made for which evidence or methodology should be provided.
"Independent, Impartial, and Verifiable" - ring any bells?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hlight=iiv
Goose wrote:Zzyzx simply wants to dismiss all the evidence and call it fictional thus taking a trip down the intellectually bankrupt road of the Jesus-myther.
Zzyzx wrote:Correction: Zzyzx has asked for evidence that the godman existed, died, and came back to life.
You can't possibly be serious. See the OP.

Zzyzx wrote:What you choose to do is of no significance whatever to me. I address my comments to rational readers who are capable of evaluating the merit of what is said in these threads.

It would seem as though “wishful thinking” pertains to the religionist view of “salvation” in an “afterlife” (being saved from a “hell” proposed by religionists) in return for worshiping a “savior” that has not been shown to have existed in reality.

I appreciate the elitism displayed by many Christians and the emotion with which they attempt to “defend the faith”. Ad hominem attacks are helpful also – to demonstrate the negative aspects of Christianity – divisiveness, hostility, anger, elitism, rage, etc (all patterned after the gods depicted in the bible).

Not only are religionist arguments shallow and single sourced, they are dependent upon attacking people rather than ideas. That is expected since religionist ideas are indefensible using reason, reality and common sense.

Invisible super beings and nature-defying “miracles” may appeal to some; however, as evident in these threads, there is no support for the existence or occurrence of either (though emotional defenses abound).

I appreciate all Christian assistance in my objective of demonstrating the lack of reason in religionist “arguments” such as, “Believe on faith alone” the tales of Bronze Age storytellers and writers. Or put all your faith in a book that was compiled by unknown churchmen from the writings of unknown or incompletely identified writers, repeating tales told by unidentified people, of incredible events and conversations that supposedly happened decades or generations earlier – and then modified, translated, transcribed, revised, and rewritten by MAN – and still revered as though it represents “the word of god”.
Oh, brother... please spare us the self-serving sermonizing for five minutes and address the evidence and question for debate.

Beto

Re: Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #17

Post by Beto »

Goose wrote:The Bible is errant and not inspired by God. We'll consider it merely a collection of ancient writings.
You're not considering it a mere collection of ancient writings because you don't admit it can be fiction.

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Post #18

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Goose wrote:
Goose wrote:Apparently Zzyzx does not need to provide evidence or methodology nor back his assertions, though he continually requests this from Christians.
Zzyzx wrote:Kindly quote the exact assertions that Zzyzx has made for which evidence or methodology should be provided.
"Independent, Impartial, and Verifiable" - ring any bells?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hlight=iiv
Thank you for demonstrating that you cannot quote any Zzyzx assertions that require evidence or methodology.

Yes, “independent, impartial, verifiable” evidence is what I ask for to back claims such as virgin birth, worldwide flood, walking on water, resurrection, and afterlife. So far that has not been provided.
Goose wrote:
Goose wrote:Zzyzx simply wants to dismiss all the evidence and call it fictional thus taking a trip down the intellectually bankrupt road of the Jesus-myther.
Zzyzx wrote:
Correction: Zzyzx has asked for evidence that the godman existed, died, and came back to life.
You can't possibly be serious. See the OP.
“Attestation” is equivalent to hearsay unless by identified eyewitness. Even eyewitness testimony is a level of evidence that is far from conclusive. Since “attestation” is the level of “proof” offered for the fundamental of Christianity – the resurrection – without which Christianity is a fraud, the basis of the religion is obviously very weak.

Do we accept “attestations” found in the Koran as proof that its claims are true? If not, why accept the same level of “proof” for the bible?

Do we accept testimonials (attestations) from multi-level marketers as being proof that their claims are true? If not, why accept the same level of “proof” for the bible?
Goose wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:What you choose to do is of no significance whatever to me. I address my comments to rational readers who are capable of evaluating the merit of what is said in these threads.

It would seem as though “wishful thinking” pertains to the religionist view of “salvation” in an “afterlife” (being saved from a “hell” proposed by religionists) in return for worshiping a “savior” that has not been shown to have existed in reality.

I appreciate the elitism displayed by many Christians and the emotion with which they attempt to “defend the faith”. Ad hominem attacks are helpful also – to demonstrate the negative aspects of Christianity – divisiveness, hostility, anger, elitism, rage, etc (all patterned after the gods depicted in the bible).

Not only are religionist arguments shallow and single sourced, they are dependent upon attacking people rather than ideas. That is expected since religionist ideas are indefensible using reason, reality and common sense.

Invisible super beings and nature-defying “miracles” may appeal to some; however, as evident in these threads, there is no support for the existence or occurrence of either (though emotional defenses abound).

I appreciate all Christian assistance in my objective of demonstrating the lack of reason in religionist “arguments” such as, “Believe on faith alone” the tales of Bronze Age storytellers and writers. Or put all your faith in a book that was compiled by unknown churchmen from the writings of unknown or incompletely identified writers, repeating tales told by unidentified people, of incredible events and conversations that supposedly happened decades or generations earlier – and then modified, translated, transcribed, revised, and rewritten by MAN – and still revered as though it represents “the word of god”.
Oh, brother... please spare us the self-serving sermonizing for five minutes and address the evidence and question for debate.
Perhaps you should take credit for deviation from the OP
Goose wrote:Apparently Zzyzx does not need to provide evidence or methodology nor back his assertions, though he continually requests this from Christians.
Again, exactly what assertions require evidence?
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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McCulloch
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Re: Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #19

Post by McCulloch »

McCulloch wrote:FACT 1. Jesus’ crucifixion and death
  1. Early (and enemy) attestation from the Apostle Paul - (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 2:15; 1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2 and early creedal passages in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - ca. 50-60AD)
    You cannot call Paul enemy attestation. By the time he was attesting, he was by no means an enemy. He was preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified. His accounts are almost all somewhat spiritualized with surprisingly no reference to any of Jesus' alleged activities on Earth.
  2. Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
    Perhaps biased but certainly somewhat early, if you all at least 40 years after the fact early. Do you remember correctly stuff that happened 40 years ago?
  3. Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
    Josephus' alleged material about the crucifixion is highly suspect.
  4. Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
    Tacitus can only prove that there were Christians, he says nothing about Jesus
  5. Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
    Lucian proves that Christians of the era believed in Jesus' crucifixion
  6. Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
    The alleged attestation from the Talmud is ambiguous at best, as shown by Gil Student at The Jesus Narrative in the Talmud.
  7. Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
    The principle of embarrassment seems embarrassingly the strongest argument in favour of declaring Jesus' crucifixion as fact.
FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
  1. Early attestation from Paul - he implies an empty tomb
    1 Corinthians 15:3-4 wrote:For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
    Paul makes no such assertion. He claims that Christ was raised the third day according to the Scriptures. There is no implication of a tomb, empty or otherwise.
  2. Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (the very early Pre-Markan Passion source probably contained the empty tomb)
    Yes, not surprisingly all of the four Gospels all include a reference to the empty tomb.
  3. The disciples were accused of stealing Jesus’ body by unbelieving Jews - indirect enemy confirmation that the tomb was empty (Matthew 28, Christian apologist Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 108 - ca. 150AD; Christian apologist Tertullian De Spectaculis 30 - ca. 200AD)
    Emphasis on indirect. There are no records other than by Christians that anyone accused the disciples of stealing Jesus' body.
  4. The principle of embarrassment applies to the empty tomb reported as having been discovered by women
    Given the church's and Paul's subsequent misogyny, yes this would be an embarrassment.
  5. We have no record of Jesus’ corpse being produced only accusations that the disciples stole the body.
    We have no record of Jesus dying other than the Gospels.
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Re: Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #20

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

Goose wrote:I also believe there is a solid case for the Rez that meets a reasonable burden of proof for matters of history. Equal, at least, to that which we accept for other pivotal events in ancient history accepted as true and rarely questioned.
Please give five examples of instances where reports of supernatural events are considered historical fact. If you are unable to provide these, please concede to the following:

The resurrection isn't a historical event because of the supernatural claims it makes. We don't treat reports of flying spahgetti monsters (FSM), UFO's, or the like seriously without additional evidence. In the case of UFO's, we may be compelled by a particularly detailed account to conclude the speaks saw something but we then demand further evidence before we can conclude little green men.

Christians are using a double standard for their cosmic jewish zombie (CJZ). They want the account of the CJZ to be treated as an historical issue to avoid having to provide evidence for that which did not happen.

Also, ss we've already established in other threads, the rez did not take place. It was a fictional event created by Jews around the 7th decade of the first century.

The evidence provided in the op is nothing more than a series of unsupported claims attempting to back up other unsupported claims.

I'm tired of this silly double standard. I'm tired of Christians trying to claim the CJZ is real. So provide your five instances of supernatural events that we consider historical on the word of eyewitnesses and we'll talk.

Without them? Well, you're dead in the water.

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