The battle for respect: Theistic vs Atheistic

[Confused]

I have read many posts about how the atheist should respect the theists beliefs and not degrade or insult their God in their presence. For example, say you go to the Catholic sponsored carnival, not because you believe in God, but because the proceeds are being donated to the local womens/childrens "safe haven" from battered spouses. While at this carnival, should you be considered "wrong" if you make blanket curses, taking the Lords name in vain, or if you publicly denounce God? On the other side of the spectrum, say you go to a fund raiser being sponsored by the local chapter of Universal Unitarian Foundation in which all sides of the "belief and lack thereof" are represented. Would you be considered "wrong" if you started preaching the truth of God in the presence of a group of atheists?

The question for debate should be clear from the above, but to narrow it down, what is open for debate here:
1) Is it considered disrespectful if an atheist makes comments such as "G#d D#*n it" in a public setting? If so, why?
2) Which side trumps the other? Is it any worse if an atheist makes comments against God or takes His name in vain than if a theist says a prayer in public or thanks God in public?
3) Does either side deserve preferential treatment in regards to respect for their belief?

[The Corinthian]

I think your question on whether there is hypocritical sentiment present in society, was laid out very nicely.

Most of me want to say that there is no difference between an atheist uttering what is considered words of blasphemy in front of a theist, and a theist uttering words of God in front of an atheist. But I think that would be intellectually dishonest, because I don't think that the situation is quite that black and white.

First of, there is the matter of freedom of speech. Me saying what I want to, however I want to, as long as I don't encourage others to do something illegal, or accuse someone for something illegal that I can't prove. Within the limits of freedom of speech, however, there is plenty of room to be disrespectful and basically be an asshole. But this is my right. Society might react to me being an asshole, and it would have negative social consequences, but it would be my right.

The other side to this, is when a theist is expressing his religiosity out loud in front of an atheist, it doesn't exactly attack the world view of the atheist (it would be freedom of speech), and therefore it can't really be considered disrespectful. However, when a theist says he will pray for an atheist, or says "God bless you", he is kind of infringing on the atheist's world view, and thus being disrespectful (plus it can be damn annoying ).
When an atheist says anything degrading about religion, it is disrespectful (condescending is one thing, degrading is another ).

Infringing degradingly on another person's world view, I guess, could always be considered disrespectful. But sometimes I think it is important to be a little disrespectful, so people don't go around and have false images about the validity of their beliefs (Especially if you think that someone believes something obviously stupid).

I think that you should view religion as an opinion like all other opinions, and treat it accordingly. That is why I think that all blasphemy paragraphs are bullshit.

[gbh]

1) Is it considered disrespectful if an atheist makes comments such as "G#d D#*n it" in a public setting? If so, why?

It could be considered disrespectful if there are those of the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faith in the public setting.

2) Which side trumps the other? Is it any worse if an atheist makes comments against God or takes His name in vain than if a theist says a prayer in public or thanks God in public?

In my opinion, the theist's actions are empty gestures while the atheist has a purposeful intent.

3) Does either side deserve preferential treatment in regards to respect for their belief?

No.

[Furrowed Brow]

If I compare God to the tooth fairy, then this could be seen as disrespectful. But how do you say God is a fiction without being disrespectful? Some things theists say - I have to be honest - leave my jaw fall slack with disbelief. How does one communicate not just that one thinks someone else is wrong, but gobsmackingly wrong? And how does one do that without being taken as disrespectful?

The answer I have come to, is that I tend to avoid similes like the tooth fairy. I think it is possible to be outrageously disrespectful whilst still remaining civil.

[gbh]

Furrowed Brow: If I compare God to the tooth fairy, then this could be seen as disrespectful. But how do you say God is a fiction without being disrespectful? Some things theists say - I have to be honest - leave my jaw fall slack with disbelief. How does one communicate not just that one thinks someone else is wrong, but gobsmackingly wrong? And how does one do that without being taken as disrespectful?

As much as I am likely to regret making the following statements, here goes:

I’d rather one be oneself…it is easier to work with what you see than what you don’t see. But people are people, and one doesn’t always get the true person. Z stated that I was more cynical than he, intimating that he took people on face value, but it is rare to find someone who is truly, as he put it: WYSIWYG. God is a good example…but I have been cultivating this One for a long time.

Furrowed Brow: The answer I have come to, is that I tend to avoid similes like the tooth fairy. I think it is possible to be outrageously disrespectful whilst still remaining civil.

Honesty and openmindedness or at least being willing to argue your side is much preferred to decorum, but I suppose both can live in harmony together if one strives to do so and others help along the way. I am surrounded in my community with many opinionated people, so I suppose being opinionated can also be contagious when one loses sight of one’s goal – that is, truly trying to understand another’s position.

If you have beliefs, whether theist or atheist, and have not doubted it to this extent, then your belief is unfounded. The end result, if people are honest and openminded, may not get us any further down the road but it may gain us all a better insight into each other. As I believe we each have God within us, is this not a way to flesh out what the true nature of God is?

[The Corinthian]

To try to illustrate the respect situation, we could say that religion is a lot like smoking (just go with me on this on, and try to ignore its negative connotations, and lets say it isn't bad for your health). And of course, this is far from a perfect analogy.

The default position when you are born, is non-smoker. You can later choose to smoke, and if your parents smoke, it is probably also likely that you will become a smoker.

Try imagining a society that gives smoking a special position. Now imagine that you as a non-smoker would utter a phrase like "hot smoking damn!", because you just saw a beautiful woman walk by, and nearby smokers got offended of you saying this (say the they were smoking different brands, and holding smoking as something dear to them), would you considers this as disrespectful? Even though the non-smoker meant absolutely nothing by it.

Now, imagine how society would feel like for a non-smoker, if smokers were trying to get smoking into the schools and legislature. Children would mention smoking in their morning song, followed by everyone smoking a specific brand of cigarette, both the ones who smoked a different brand and the non-smokers.

Now, imagine a non-smoker living in a society were smoking was everywhere, and were people said things like: "I know that deep inside you are a smoker", "If you would just start smoking, things would be so much easier...", "smoking makes people better persons", "Non-smokers are bad people"etc.

You can take this analogy pretty far out when including different brands, cigars etc, but I hope it illustrates the frustration of atheists. So every time you don't understand an atheist, try imagine how it would feel being a non-smoker in a smoking society.

Again, I'm well aware that this is a faulty analogy.

[gbh]

First Corinthian: Again, I'm well aware that this is a faulty analogy.

Frankly, I think it is a pretty good analogy.

Let’s begin with argument #1:

The default position when you are born, is non-smoker. You can later choose to smoke, and if your parents smoke, it is probably also likely that you will become a smoker.

What if your parents smoked, but you chose not to. When you had your first child, your parents realized how wrong they were and quit cold turkey, and while you and spouse never did choose to smoke, the child chose to smoke off and on?

As with theism and atheism, situations arise that can lead one to reassess one’s beliefs even to the point of perhaps changing completely, while some go back and forth, and still others are determined to remain solid in their belief. It is in the challenge, however it comes about…in respectful ways and disrespectful ways, that one’s beliefs are tested. One cannot always assume these challenges are going to be catered directly to one’s desires…some need to hit a brick wall to determine whether they are hot or cold. A lukewarm theist is not any better than a lukewarm atheist…it is in the choosing that we are accountable and responsible to ourself…otherwise we are but causal floaters.

Try imagining a society that gives smoking a special position. Now imagine that you as a non-smoker would utter a phrase like "hot smoking damn!", because you just saw a beautiful woman walk by, and nearby smokers got offended of you saying this (say the they were smoking different brands, and holding smoking as something dear to them), would you considers this as disrespectful? Even though the non-smoker meant absolutely nothing by it.

Thank you for pointing out something in my earlier post. After I wrote that an atheist who swore had purposeful intent to show disrespect, and closed down the computer for the night, I began to think about my answer. How one answered that question says quite a lot about the person. You are right in that some who swear may have no intent other than to express dismay about something that bothered them or the beauty of a woman. It has just been my experience with certain people who say this and are not atheists, are saying it with an intent to upset me. Personal experience affected my answer…that being said, is it right to swear or utter words of this sort at all? Is it showing respect to utter these words to a beautiful woman? Unless she is egotistical, it might actually be quite offensive, as there may be much more to her than her looks, which she may consider a curse as it always conjures up an impression in another that she does not want.

Now, imagine how society would feel like for a non-smoker, if smokers were trying to get smoking into the schools and legislature. Children would mention smoking in their morning song, followed by everyone smoking a specific brand of cigarette, both the ones who smoked a different brand and the non-smokers.

Ah, now this one is tough…rights. Here is where your analogy falters a bit because smokers change the air one breathes whereas theology is not physical but mental. I would rather address actual theism in this scenario because one should not have to be subjected to another’s beliefs in a public setting by force. What I find disconcerting in this area is that it is not theism that is the bully where I work but atheism. We had a receptionist who was Christian. She answered the phone all day and during the time that she did not answer the phone, she read her Bible. She did not proselytize anyone, nor make mention of her reading unless specifically asked…and yet, someone in our office was offended even though they did not work anywhere near her and because religion is not allowed, she had to read something else instead…so she turned to romance novels. Now, I ask you, what was the point in that? We are a country that has freedom of religion, and yet is this freedom of religion or religious oppression? This hammer swings both ways.

Now, imagine a non-smoker living in a society were smoking was everywhere, and were people said things like: "I know that deep inside you are a smoker", "If you would just start smoking, things would be so much easier...", "smoking makes people better persons", "Non-smokers are bad people"etc.

I think this is wrong…but, I must add a caveat. If one enters into a discussion with another on this topic, he better know that he lit the match. This forum is lighting a match with any post and any reply… but to proselytize someone for just living in their home or walking out on the street, especially after they say they are not interested, is harassment. It would seem to me that actions speak louder than words in this scenario. For instance, this church that is in my neighborhood hands out cold water during the summer to the runners without saying a word…I suppose when Flail speaks of turning churches into soup kitchens, his intent may have been about this type of action.

You can take this analogy pretty far out when including different brands, cigars etc, but I hope it illustrates the frustration of atheists. So every time you don't understand an atheist, try imagine how it would feel being a non-smoker in a smoking society.

Well, I’m old enough to remember growing up in a household where parents smoked all the time, you could not escape it in restaurants, airplanes, airports, in your office or walking down the street. It is regrettable that you feel this constricted.

Let me add a different analogy, one that came up in a conversation about why people are so opinionated and why they feel it necessary to be right and force others into submission to their self-affirmed righteousness…it may be a bad analogy, but here goes:

There are two men, Jack and Tom, each of whom have a headache. They are led into a room with a table, two chairs, two glasses of water and a bottle each of aspirin and Advil. Tom reaches for the aspirin while Jack reaches for the Advil. Tom turns to Jack and says, “You know, that stuff destroys your kidneys.” Jack replies, “Yeah, well aspirin makes your blood thin.” They both argue on and on making their respective head ache even more, when, in fact, both medications are the lesser of two evils, it is six for one and half dozen for the other. What is a fact is that both have headaches…

Now, what is it in each one of us that is connected to the other? None of us is responsible for creating his own life, so why do we quibble over things that we invented or interpreted in our own minds to make us feel secure one way or the other? The box lid is off, there is life outside the box. One may not be responsible for one’s own creation, but one is responsible for how one lives it…and I believe that that which created us may have had this in mind…but what is THAT? Perhaps “THAT” is not something for debate or discussion purposes ...or, perhaps "THAT" is subject material for another post.

[Confused]

1) Is it considered disrespectful if an atheist makes comments such as "G#d D#*n it" in a public setting? If so, why?

It could be considered disrespectful if there are those of the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faith in the public setting.

2) Which side trumps the other? Is it any worse if an atheist makes comments against God or takes His name in vain than if a theist says a prayer in public or thanks God in public?

In my opinion, the theist's actions are empty gestures while the atheist has a purposeful intent.

3) Does either side deserve preferential treatment in regards to respect for their belief?

No.

Doesn't #3 and #1 clash based on your answers?

[led by the spirit]

Greeting
Hypothetically:Take one of each person up on top of a really tall building say 50 + story high.Put a microphone on each person and then push each one off at the same time.And see if both don't just start calling out to God.
note there was a camouflaged net they couldn't see at the bottom so as to make the experience genuine.
When put to the test deep down all believes in a higher power.Perhaps an rock could qualify as an Atheist in the truest sense of the word but definitely not a living being. God bless.So be it!

[Confused]

Greeting
Hypothetically:Take one of each person up on top of a really tall building say 50 + story high.Put a microphone on each person and then push each one off at the same time.And see if both don't just start calling out to God.
note there was a camouflaged net they couldn't see at the bottom so as to make the experience genuine.
When put to the test deep down all believes in a higher power.Perhaps an rock could qualify as an Atheist in the truest sense of the word but definitely not a living being. God bless.So be it!

Unless you have some hard facts to support that, I will have to consider this a mere opinion.

That being said, it is plausible such could happen. But that has what to do with the OP?