Do you really care that I am going to hell?

[Cmass]

I don't think you really believe I will fry in Hell for being an Atheist. I don't think you really truly believe any of your non-believing family will either. I think deep down, you know it just isn't true.

If you do believe they will all fry and are not doing absolutely everything in your power to stop it, I would suggest that you are a very cold, dispassionate person. If you really believed your dearly beloved mother was going to burn in hell right next to Cmass and Charles Manson then you would stop at nothing to convince her to accept Jesus. You would not just gently encourage, you would be emotionally and perhaps even physically engaged on a daily and hourly basis. You most certainly would not be reading this silly OP right now. Not if you REALLY cared.

Think about it. If you saw your mother being beaten by someone on the street, would you stop to help save her? Would you put your own life at risk to keep her from drowning? Is there anything you would not do to help her? OK, what about eternal torture in hell? Doesn't this concern you? What about all the other people in your life who are going to hell? Doesn't this leave you feeling devastated? If I believed there was a hell and that so many people would be going - especially any of my friends or family - I would be in constant agony myself and would devote my life to stopping it. Or, I would be numb.

Does your knowledge that so many people will be in eternal torture bother you very much on a daily basis?

This OP came about after reading commentary by some of our more conservative Christian friends in here. Some seem to have no real problem with all us atheists burning in hell forever. Granted, there are probably some personal anger issues involved but still, I have always been uneasy with how casual many Christians are when it comes to discussing eternal damnation. Some get more upset over running over a kitty than the eternal torture of their best friend.

Nonetheless, I give most the benefit of the doubt: I don't think they are really that cold. I just don't think they really believe as much in the hell concept as they report.

[Confused]

I don't think you really believe I will fry in Hell for being an Atheist.

I DO should you really cleave and cling on to your faith of being an atheist unto your death, and that is no joke on my part.

So you interpret hell as something akin to Dantes inferno? Where in scripture would you say this description of hell is explicitly defined?

I am certain with my statement and I am not interpreting anything in the scripture because I learned what I said directly from the Lord Jesus Christ, not from the scripture for the scripture or the bible is not God. For the information of all, hell, as the Lord teaches, is the big planet of fire and boiling water which will be formed by the merger of all exploded heavenly bodies in the whole universe, both seen and unseen, and of our very dear earth (which will be the last to explode) come judgment day or the second coming of the Lord. Should anyone wants the truth about all things, come direct to Jesus, ask and learn directly from the Lord Jesus Christ, the bible cannot teach to us these very delicate things because it is only a book.

Now, do you still see that hell is akin do Dantes inferno?

Nope, but sorry I asked.

[adlemi]

You call that simple? That was probably the most confusing sentence I've read all day! .

Isn't is very simple that if you have peace with you, God is the Lord of peace and God will bring and meet you with peace, what is not simple in this manner?

So what you are saying is this:

1. God allows atheists to think there is no God.

Because it is in this illusion, that there is no God at all, atheist drowned themselves in in spite of the trials and calls set forth by God before their path.

2. God allows those who believe in him believe that the exists?.

Of course, God reveals himself to those who dilligently seek and believe Him.

Your logic belies imagination.

Naturally because immagination is not always reality.

Addressing each point:
1. Apparently, I can blame my atheism on God, becuase he is pulling this veil of doubt across my eyes. If he actively gives me "the world where there is really no God" then whose fault is it I am atheist? .

What is that veil of doubt? It is your fault because you decided to be an atheist on your own eventhough you hear from others that there is God. Did you even try before seeking and calling on to God?

But now that there is someone telling you to come to God, put and entrust your wholeself in Him, and subject yourself under the direct tutelage of God for you to experience, live, and sup with God in the reality of His own existence all because they encounter God in that way, could you still blame God when time comes you meet God face to face?

2. That just doesn't make sense. You chase your tail better than a two legged dog. If someone believed in God, then God wouldn't have to allow them to see that he exists. .

Are you telling me that if your son knock on your door you will not open the door to let him in? If someone came to believe in God and continues to believe and have the true faith in God, why wouldn't God allow him to see that God exists?

Furthermore, what about someone who is not sure, who is not yet christian. Are they considered atheist and thus precluded from realising God exists, as per your first supposition?.

If it is not left nor right, then definitely it is not left in the same manner that it is not right, too. But that would not preclude him from realising God exists nor same would preclude him from being definitely an atheist, possibility of becoming either left or right is not impossible to happen with him in the future.

Sounds like God does an awful lot of...making us believe what we all ready believe.

Yours is in the world of "God is what we people make it" and ours is "God is what and how we see Him coming in to our life in the reality of His existence." This is not to brag of but just to let you people know that there is really God existing in all ages to whom we all can call on and come to at all times.

[Scrotum]

You call that simple? That was probably the most confusing sentence I've read all day! .

Isn't is very simple that if you have peace with you, God is the Lord of peace and God will bring and meet you with peace, what is not simple in this manner?

So what you are saying is this:

1. God allows atheists to think there is no God.

Because it is in this illusion, that there is no God at all, atheist drowned themselves in in spite of the trials and calls set forth by God before their path.

2. God allows those who believe in him believe that the exists?.

Of course, God reveals himself to those who dilligently seek and believe Him.

Your logic belies imagination.

Naturally because immagination is not always reality.

Addressing each point:
1. Apparently, I can blame my atheism on God, becuase he is pulling this veil of doubt across my eyes. If he actively gives me "the world where there is really no God" then whose fault is it I am atheist? .

What is that veil of doubt? It is your fault because you decided to be an atheist on your own eventhough you hear from others that there is God. Did you even try before seeking and calling on to God?

But now that there is someone telling you to come to God, put and entrust your wholeself in Him, and subject yourself under the direct tutelage of God for you to experience, live, and sup with God in the reality of His own existence all because they encounter God in that way, could you still blame God when time comes you meet God face to face?

2. That just doesn't make sense. You chase your tail better than a two legged dog. If someone believed in God, then God wouldn't have to allow them to see that he exists. .

Are you telling me that if your son knock on your door you will not open the door to let him in? If someone came to believe in God and continues to believe and have the true faith in God, why wouldn't God allow him to see that God exists?

Furthermore, what about someone who is not sure, who is not yet christian. Are they considered atheist and thus precluded from realising God exists, as per your first supposition?.

If it is not left nor right, then definitely it is not left in the same manner that it is not right, too. But that would not preclude him from realising God exists nor same would preclude him from being definitely an atheist, possibility of becoming either left or right is not impossible to happen with him in the future.

Sounds like God does an awful lot of...making us believe what we all ready believe.

Yours is in the world of "God is what we people make it" and ours is "God is what and how we see Him coming in to our life in the reality of His existence." This is not to brag of but just to let you people know that there is really God existing in all ages to whom we all can call on and come to at all times.

You sure seem very sure of yourself, i assume you have evidence for your belief?

As if you claimed that planet earth is not the center in our solar system, we would demand proof, you supply, we agree/discard. I assume you have evidence for your clearly proclaimed ""there is really God", and you can give it to us, and hence, make us all theists.

Or are you now going to say that you have to "believe" to see the "proof", or maybe "there is no proof, but if you believe He is real, he becomes "real""....

[adlemi]

You sure seem very sure of yourself, i assume you have evidence for your belief?

Yes indedd, I am very sure of with what and who I am cleaving and clinging to - the Almighty Lord God of all whom we are encountering, living, and supping with in our life today.

As if you claimed that planet earth is not the center in our solar system, we would demand proof, you supply, we agree/discard.

Our duty is to scatter things God commands us to do and your duty in return is to believe in God, call on and come to God and subject yourself totally to God and God himself, not us, will be the one to give you proofs so that you may prove unto yourself afterward the reality of the existence of God.

I assume you have evidence for your clearly proclaimed ""there is really God", and you can give it to us, and hence, make us all theists.

My evidence is God himself who will reveal the reality of His existence to you guys should you just seek Him truly. My evidences are the words which I posted already in many fora like this and the Lord God will be the One to prove himself to those who will believe in Him truly.

Or are you now going to say that you have to "believe" to see the "proof", or maybe "there is no proof, but if you believe He is real, he becomes "real""....

With all the things God have shown to us, they are suffice enough for us to put all our trust in the reality of God. This is not easy to understand lest you yourself experience what we've been through with God. Instead of asking us for proofs, why don't you shift your query to God himself, why don't you believe God reallly exists?

[Openmind]

Openmind wrote:
Addressing each point:
1. Apparently, I can blame my atheism on God, becuase he is pulling this veil of doubt across my eyes. If he actively gives me "the world where there is really no God" then whose fault is it I am atheist? .

What is that veil of doubt? It is your fault because you decided to be an atheist on your own eventhough you hear from others that there is God. Did you even try before seeking and calling on to God?

But now that there is someone telling you to come to God, put and entrust your wholeself in Him, and subject yourself under the direct tutelage of God for you to experience, live, and sup with God in the reality of His own existence all because they encounter God in that way, could you still blame God when time comes you meet God face to face?

Huh? You claimed that God makes atheists continue to believe there is no God. Where is the problem - I blame my continuing atheism and inability to believe in God...on God, as per your claim:

God will give you the world where there is really no God in your perception

Openmind wrote:
2. That just doesn't make sense. You chase your tail better than a two legged dog. If someone believed in God, then God wouldn't have to allow them to see that he exists. .

Are you telling me that if your son knock on your door you will not open the door to let him in? If someone came to believe in God and continues to believe and have the true faith in God, why wouldn't God allow him to see that God exists?

Of course I would open the door. Let me reverse your analogy. The door is closed to your house. There are no lights on - people tell your son that daddy is home, but daddy won't come out. So the son believes dad isn't home. Is that such an unreasonable assumption? By your argument, God not only closes the door to one who believes in him, but he refuses to help him believe. He just shuts him out!

It is your fault because you decided to be an atheist on your own eventhough you hear from others that there is God. Did you even try before seeking and calling on to God?

How about this one, adlemi. I am a rational person. I concluded long ago that there might not be a God, but there is always a chance that he does exist. One day, when I was out walking in the very beautiful farm that I live on, I stopped. I wanted to sincerely find out whether God was there. I wasn't testing him. I was aking him. I said "God, are you there?". No answer. "I'm not trying to trick you, I just want to know". No answer. I continued to walk, and ask for God to come to me.

Now that was sincere - I was actively looking for God, becuase I dearly wanted to believe that a God existed. In your eyes, I went to his door, and banged on it for a good ten minutes, pleading that if anyone was inside, they come out and let me in.

But the door remained firmly shut adlemi - I completely opened myself up to a potential God and asked for them to come to me. With no hint of his existence, what was I supposed to conclude?

The truth is adlemi - no one lives in the house, and you truly think someone does, you are sadly duped.

[Jester]

To the end that I am a decent and compassionate person, I hurt for those who do go to hell

Not nearly enough, by the sounds of it Jester. Do you have any friends or family who are going to hell? If not, you probably haven't yet realised the full implications of eternal torment with regards to loved ones. Perhaps your degree of pain is understandable in this case.

I openly admit that I am not nearly good enough as a human being. Personally, I am trying. I care much more for others than I did in the past and will care even more in the future.
I do not claim to know for certain who is going to hell and who is not, but do have many family members and friends who leave me very worried about them in this respect. I worry over them, pray for them, encourage them to seek truth (and bite my tongue when I want to dictate truth for them).
All apologies if I implied that I have little concern over the issue. I generally deal with significant personal stress regarding the ultimate fate of those whom I suspect will suffer, but would be lying if I said that I loved “enough”. No love is enough until it is perfect – and perfect I am not.

[Openmind]

I do not claim to know for certain who is going to hell and who is not, but do have many family members and friends who leave me very worried about them in this respect. I worry over them, pray for them, encourage them to seek truth (and bite my tongue when I want to dictate truth for them).

The truth cannot be dictated Jester. The truth is entirely subjective. With same degree of truth that you believe they will go to hell, they believe they will not.

All apologies if I implied that I have little concern over the issue. I generally deal with significant personal stress regarding the ultimate fate of those whom I suspect will suffer, but would be lying if I said that I loved “enough”.

I accept your apology. Not many christians seem to have much concern at all. You show more than others.

Let me put it in perspective with a hypothetical.

Your mother believes that she is going to a book cconvention for two months. However, you know with absolute truth that upon arriving, she will be shuttled away to a secret torture camp, where she will be in complete, constant agony for two months. Most likely, she will go insane because of the ordeal. You can do nothing to save her, or alleviate her pain.

Now, putting aside the fact that your mother may or may not attend book conventions, wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent her attending the convention? Would you stop at nothing to convince her? Would you forcefully sit her down and with as much mental force as possible, convince her that she is going to be tortured? As a last resort, would you physically restrain her from leaving until she believed what you believe?

I'm sure you answered yes to the above, because it is an example of something tangible we can all relate to. We all have mothers, we know for sure there are book conventions, and there are torture camps. They are absolute truths for you and me. Heaven and hell are intangible. Only the most faithful, blind fundamentalist believes with ABSOLUTE conviction that they are the ultimate resting places of the soul. I really don't think you believe it, though you might fool yourself into thinking you die.

So if you are prepared to go to these lengths to save your mother from two months of torture, why not even greater lengths to save her from an eternity of torture.

I don't encourage you to do the above to your mother to convert her. But I say this. If you truly believed she was going to hell, unless you are some sort of a monster (note: an ABSOLUTE monster - not "not nearly good enough as a human being"), then you would be doing these things.

See how easy it is for me to conclude you don't really believe unbelievers are going to hell, deep down? I don't believe you are a monster, or at least I don't want to believe any human being is that unfeeling, and that their invisible, intangible, mute, unknowable, absent, weak excuse for an imaginary friend is in any way more important than their family.

It makes me sick to the soul when any religious person says - "I choose God before my family".

[Cmass]

Open Mind said:

I accept your apology. Not many christians seem to have much concern at all. You show more than others.

Let me put it in perspective with a hypothetical.

Your mother believes that she is going to a book cconvention for two months. However, you know with absolute truth that upon arriving, she will be shuttled away to a secret torture camp, where she will be in complete, constant agony for two months. Most likely, she will go insane because of the ordeal. You can do nothing to save her, or alleviate her pain.

Now, putting aside the fact that your mother may or may not attend book conventions, wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent her attending the convention? Would you stop at nothing to convince her? Would you forcefully sit her down and with as much mental force as possible, convince her that she is going to be tortured? As a last resort, would you physically restrain her from leaving until she believed what you believe?

I'm sure you answered yes to the above, because it is an example of something tangible we can all relate to. We all have mothers, we know for sure there are book conventions, and there are torture camps. They are absolute truths for you and me. Heaven and hell are intangible. Only the most faithful, blind fundamentalist believes with ABSOLUTE conviction that they are the ultimate resting places of the soul. I really don't think you believe it, though you might fool yourself into thinking you die.

So if you are prepared to go to these lengths to save your mother from two months of torture, why not even greater lengths to save her from an eternity of torture.

I don't encourage you to do the above to your mother to convert her. But I say this. If you truly believed she was going to hell, unless you are some sort of a monster (note: an ABSOLUTE monster - not "not nearly good enough as a human being"), then you would be doing these things.

See how easy it is for me to conclude you don't really believe unbelievers are going to hell, deep down? I don't believe you are a monster, or at least I don't want to believe any human being is that unfeeling, and that their invisible, intangible, mute, unknowable, absent, weak excuse for an imaginary friend is in any way more important than their family.

It makes me sick to the soul when any religious person says - "I choose God before my family".

This is VERY well explained and is exactly what I was trying to communicate. Adlemi, can you now understand the conundrum? Can you address it in a personal, empathetic way?
Easyrider?
Biker?

[adlemi]

This is VERY well explained and is exactly what I was trying to communicate. Adlemi, can you now understand the conundrum? Can you address it in a personal, empathetic way?
Easyrider?
Biker?

In the conundrum, I can forcefully prevent my mother from going to the book convention so that she can escape the inevitable torture that awaits her at the said convention. But the destiny of my mother with respect to heaven and hell is a far different scenario compared with that of her going to the book convention. Say for example if my mother is an atheist, all I can do is to tell her that disbelieving the reality of God unto her death will entitled her to go to hell. I can advise her to believe, come directly, and entrust herself to God, but I cannot force her to do those things to God because the Lord God is reading from the heart of every man hence forcing her to believe in God is in vain because she may only agree with me by her lips but not by what is being dictated by her heart. With God, there is no forceful imposition of believing in Him, everybody is given with free will (to believe or not to believe) and the rule says, without faith it is impossible to please God.

[Openmind]

In the conundrum, I can forcefully prevent my mother from going to the book convention so that she can escape the inevitable torture that awaits her at the said convention. But the destiny of my mother with respect to heaven and hell is a far different scenario compared with that of her going to the book convention. Say for example if my mother is an atheist, all I can do is to tell her that disbelieving the reality of God unto her death will entitled her to go to hell. I can advise her to believe, come directly, and entrust herself to God, but I cannot force her to do those things to God because the Lord God is reading from the heart of every man hence forcing her to believe in God is in vain because she may only agree with me by her lips but not by what is being dictated by her heart. With God, there is no forceful imposition of believing in Him, everybody is given with free will (to believe or not to believe) and the rule says, without faith it is impossible to please God.

True you cannot physically restrain her from going to Hell, but you can certainly do a lot of mental manipulation. You should be attempting to convert her 24/7. Obviously, christians must believe that conversion and attempting to convert someone works (otherwise missionaries would be out of a job) so you should be doing it yourself. You should be hiring as many people as possible to help. You should trick her if possible - make voices when she thinks she is alone so she thinks it is God. Write innumerable letters to the Pope asking him to talk to her (regardless of whether you are catholic he no doubt holds a lot of religious sway). Sit her down and force her to read the bible.

Raising a child to be scared witless of Hell seems an effective tool in convincing someone to believe. You should do the same. Take her to those "hell" shows in the south of America, the ones where they act out the condemnation and torture of a poor homosexual. There are videos in which you can watch people burning in a fake hell and hear their tortured cries. I don't know where you could get one...christian lifestyle shop perhaps?

Disregarding attempts to convert her, consider the emotional toll on yourself. Your mother, your only, loving mother is going to be roasted alive for all time. You should feel the dread just reading that. If I were you, and I truly believed my beloved mother was going to fry for her "sins", then I'd be crying myself to sleep every night, because there is nothing I love more in this world than my family. Unless you don't believe the same thing, you should feel the same way. Have you ever lost a close friend who was christian? You no doubt felt awful and grief stricken. Imagine the same for a non-christian. Feel that every day, for there is no heaven for them.

Until you are doing all of the above, and until you feel horrible and sick and disgusted with your mother's afterlife constantly, crying yourself to sleep at night, then I can conclude only one thing: You really don't believe she is going there.

It is not a presumptous statement. It makes a lot of sense. Heck, I would cry myself to sleep every night if I knew my mother was going to be tortured for 2 weeks (like the above example).