Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #436]

It depends on the claim Venom. If you told me your friend got in a car wreck, I'd likely take you at your word, as I know cars exist and that people have accidents. However, if you had told me that your friend told you that his car flew from point A to point B, I'd likely not believe what your friend told you. Now magnify that claim even more and we can then talk about the hearsay of a flying ghost.

And my point to the other interlocutor was that the Bible is nothing but hearsay, as opposed to his claim that they came directly from hundreds of eyewitnesses.

Yeah, it depends on the claim.

Universes coming into existence out of nothing..inanimate matter coming life and beginning to talk...astronomical odds being met on the first attempt...animals looking fundamentally different than their parents and grandparents.

All types of wild, extraordinary, voodoo, hocus pocus claims being made there...and they aren't even coming from religious books, either.

[POI]

A state of non-being.

In your worldview, isn't god considered a supreme being?

Nothing burger.

Continuing to entertain or addressing more 'science' with a bonafide science denier would be, in your words, 'WILD',

Nothing burger.

Demonstrable proof and mounds of evidence, completely handwaved away by a bonanfide science denier, looks to be your (go-to) move. As I continue to state, the Dover trial will forever haunt your dreams.

Nothing burger.

More handwaving Venom... The conclusion is the invisible prayer answering floating sky carcass? If so, I will completely be on team-Venom, which is what you desperately want, the second you demonstrate the power of prayer. Until then, we will continue in these highly repeated series of exchanges.

For anyone just tuning in now, Venom states that god answers his prayer. And for the record, Venom loves me and would like nothing more than for me to not only become a god-believer, but to accept Jesus. Well, I've told him I tried for decades but did not receive what was promised from the Bible. Venom then cherry picked a verse, which states that the ones who have not seen and believe are more blessed. But this would be ignoring the fact that the Bible also states that god answers prayer. Now the apologists will argue that god will not answer just any prayer, for obvious reasons. However, if an earnest individual asks to be converted to him/Jesus, and Jesus is claimed to answer prayer, and I'm in communication with a fella who states that Jesus answers his prayer, then it is quite logical to ask this individual what I have asked. I've continued to ask this fella to prayer for me -- (like 100 times now). He obviously refuses, as he already knows that such a simple request, which would convert me, (which is exactly what Venom and 'Jesus' would want), ain't gonna happen because we all know that prayer is ultimately nothing more than talking to yourself.

Anywho, back to our regularly scheduled perpetual and repetitive exchange...

Nature (STEM) began to exist. What could give STEM it's existence?

The invisible prayer-answering flying sky carcass. Of course. See above in red.

Nature (STEM) began to exist. So whatever gave STEM it's beginning, cannot logically be included among those countless examples.

Therefore, the invisible prayer-answering flying sky carcass. See above in red.

The usual blank assertion, with no substance whatsoever.

Are you under the impression that action(s) can happen outside of time?

Tacitus' account of a mysterious superstition which arose, surrounding the events of Jesus' death. The superstition was undoubtedly the resurrection.

This is wishful thinking Venom. Tacitus does not cite official Roman records confirming a resurrection, nor does he claim to have witnessed any post-death appearances. He is simply describing the origin story that this specific religious group proclaimed. It would be like other later historians, who speak about (the rise of any other group), who possess a set of beliefs.

If your argument in instead that extra-Biblical 'evidence' exists confirming that a homeless preacher was executed for 'treason' and that later people were followers and believed in the circulating legends(s), then I would have no 'beef' with this conclusion. But to go the extra mile screams bias in which an indoctrinated fella might also inject.

The four Gospels,

We've been over this ad nauseum Venom -- in previous thread(s). The (4) Gospels are not trustworthy.

and Paul's letters.

How exactly does Paul's letters confirm a resurrection?

Jesus is the only option.

Excellent! Then please simply ask this invisible prayer answering deity to answer your requested prayer(s) and convert an individual who you desperately want converted. Failure to do so will, again, demonstrates the complete irony for which you accuse me of, which is 'weak sauce' and 'nothing burger(s)'.

Human life.

Loopy loopy here... Yet again, harken back to the billion yards of the created concrete slab, where cracks and weeds later develop. Spoiler alert, the 'creator's intention was not for later living things to manifest.

Further, (again), why would a "creator", 1) who's intention is to design an environment for humans, 'create' one where 99.9999999% is lethal to humans, and 2) a planet itself, where the vast majority of it is also inhabitable to humans?

If your bank account as 0 dollars, how much money do you have?

And the bank, and all of its surrounding, is 'nothing' too?

Abiogenesis is false. So Creationism is true.

Correction... Science denial = Jesus

Dogs produce dogs.

Peer review is peer review. And since you misrepresent what it is, you will continue in your misinformed view of such peer reviewed science.

I refer you to Dr. Craig's rebuttals of those 5 points.

Yet again, these (5) points are....?

[POI]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #436]

It depends on the claim Venom. If you told me your friend got in a car wreck, I'd likely take you at your word, as I know cars exist and that people have accidents. However, if you had told me that your friend told you that his car flew from point A to point B, I'd likely not believe what your friend told you. Now magnify that claim even more and we can then talk about the hearsay of a flying ghost.

And my point to the other interlocutor was that the Bible is nothing but hearsay, as opposed to his claim that they came directly from hundreds of eyewitnesses.

Yeah, it depends on the claim.

Universes coming into existence out of nothing..inanimate matter coming life and beginning to talk...astronomical odds being met on the first attempt...animals looking fundamentally different than their parents and grandparents.

All types of wild, extraordinary, voodoo, hocus pocus claims being made there...and they aren't even coming from religious books, either.

Kool Venom. Please perform the part in red, from the prior post, so we can stop having to continuing to endure your baseless rants and cope.

[SiNcE_1985]

Kool Venom. Please perform the part in red, from the prior post, so we can stop having to continuing to endure your baseless rants and cope.

Nah.

When it comes to extraordinary claims from science and naturalists; you're quiet as a church mouse. You're on mute. You let it ride.

But regarding what you view as extraordinary claims from theology/theologians; now all of a sudden, you have a lot to say. You're a social butterfly. You're a chirping bird.

You're inconsistent, and we're gonna play ball fair around here.

[POI]

Kool Venom. Please perform the part in red, from the prior post, so we can stop having to continuing to endure your baseless rants and cope.

Nah.

When it comes to extraordinary claims from science and naturalists; you're quiet as a church mouse. You're on mute. You let it ride.

But regarding what you view as extraordinary claims from theology/theologians; now all of a sudden, you have a lot to say. You're a social butterfly. You're a chirping bird.

You're inconsistent, and we're gonna play ball fair around here.

More excuses Venom. If you could, you certainly would. You desperately want me converted and you can do so easily. And I've spoon fed you the recipe for swift conversion. Alternatively, I already know I'm speaking to a wall as I already know my interlocutor will not change their core beliefs. I debate so others can see the exchange. And we all know why you won't pray, as I requested. Just admit that prayer is talking to yourself and be done with it already.

[SiNcE_1985]

In your worldview, isn't god considered a supreme being?

Reading comprehension.

I said a UNIVERSE from a state of nothingness.

And if you think that's crazy, maybe you should reread the nonsense you said about the virtual particles.

Remember that?

Continuing to entertain or addressing more 'science' with a bonafide science denier would be, in your words, 'WILD',

Abiogenesis and macroevolution; neither are science.

Demonstrable proof and mounds of evidence, completely handwaved away by a bonanfide science denier, looks to be your (go-to) move. As I continue to state, the Dover trial will forever haunt your dreams.

1 chance in 10^10^123.

More handwaving Venom... The conclusion is the invisible prayer answering floating sky carcass? If so, I will completely be on team-Venom, which is what you desperately want, the second you demonstrate the power of prayer. Until then, we will continue in these highly repeated series of exchanges.

I'm now operating under the premise that God doesn't exist...so appealing to prayer makes no sense.

Now, on naturalism... explain.

1. A universe from nothing.

2. Abiogenesis.

3. The origins of consciousness.

4. Fine-tuning of the universe.

5. Traversal of infinity.

God doesn't exist, so explain.

Let's make a deal, I'll address those 5 points from Carroll...if you can adequately address the above 5 points, from me.

Keyword: Adequately.

Now, I know you have an unlimited amount of nothing burgers on the grill, and can't wait to serve them up... but that's not what I'm asking for.

Seriously address those 5 points..and until then, spare all of us from countless threads of crying about lack of evidence.

For anyone just tuning in now, Venom states that god answers his prayer. And for the record, Venom loves me and would like nothing more than for me to not only become a god-believer, but to accept Jesus.

Do you know about Jesus? Yes.

Have you accepted him yet? No.

Sounds like a you, thing.

Well, I've told him I tried for decades but did not receive what was promised from the Bible.

And for decades you've been on here arguing against God's existence.

Hmm. Let that sink in for a sec.

Venom then cherry picked a verse, which states that the ones who have not seen and believe are more blessed. But this would be ignoring the fact that the Bible also states that god answers prayer.

Someone tell our unbelieving friend, that "no" is an answer.

I guess he thinks we live in a perfect world where the answer is "yes" to all of his inquiries.

Now the apologists will argue that god will not answer just any prayer, for obvious reasons. However, if an earnest individual asks to be converted to him/Jesus, and Jesus is claimed to answer prayer, and I'm in communication with a fella who states that Jesus answers his prayer, then it is quite logical to ask this individual what I have asked. I've continued to ask this fella to prayer for me -- (like 100 times now). He obviously refuses, as he already knows that such a simple request, which would convert me, (which is exactly what Venom and 'Jesus' would want), ain't gonna happen because we all know that prayer is ultimately nothing more than talking to yourself.

All I see from you, over the course of your MANY years as a member of this forum is..

Bad-faith inquiries...along with unnecessary, probing questions, and countless, sensationalized threads.

Let it go. Christianity just ain't for you.

The invisible prayer-answering flying sky carcass. Of course. See above in red.

Therefore, the invisible prayer-answering flying sky carcass. See above in red.

See, case point^.

You're being demeaning/derogatory..by calling Jesus a flying sky carcass.

First of all, a carcass is dead...which Jesus isn't...which is focal point of the entire religion in the first place.

Second, you say crap like that^, but then expect God to answer your prayers?

No, humble yourself and prostrate yourself before the Almighty and ask for forgiveness.

Do that first, and then we can talk about prayers.

Are you under the impression that action(s) can happen outside of time?

No. I am not under that impression.

This is wishful thinking Venom. Tacitus does not cite official Roman records confirming a resurrection, nor does he claim to have witnessed any post-death appearances. He is simply describing the origin story that this specific religious group proclaimed.

I agree...but no one is saying that Tacitus affirms the resurrection or appearances.

The point is, according to Tacitus, Jesus' crucifixion coincides with the reign of Tiberius, and the governorship of Pontius Pilate...which harmonizes with the Gospel accounts.

And that a mischievous superstition arose as a result of Jesus' crucifixion, which also coincides with the Gospel account.

Funny, because every time conversations like this arises, skeptics always try to unnecessarily move the goal posts, by telling us what it doesn't say.

That's cool, because we can get by just fine based on what it DOES say.

It would be like other later historians, who speak about (the rise of any other group), who possess a set of beliefs.

Again, my point is proven, based on precisely what the text state.

We don't need to add nor take away anything.

If your argument in instead that extra-Biblical 'evidence' exists confirming that a homeless preacher was executed for 'treason' and that later people were followers and believed in the circulating legends(s), then I would have no 'beef' with this conclusion. But to go the extra mile screams bias in which an indoctrinated fella might also inject.

First of all, the stories weren't circulating legends.

Legends develope between 40 to 60 decades after the fact.

The belief in Jesus' resurrection...3-5 years after the fact.

So, stop it.

We've been over this ad nauseum Venom -- in previous thread(s). The (4) Gospels are not trustworthy.

Opinions. I disagree.

I guess thats what makes me a Gospel-believing Christian, and what makes you an unbelieving skeptic.

How exactly does Paul's letters confirm a resurrection?

1 Corin 15-3-8.

Excellent! Then please simply ask this invisible prayer answering deity to answer your requested prayer(s) and convert an individual who you desperately want converted. Failure to do so will, again, demonstrates the complete irony for which you accuse me of, which is 'weak sauce' and 'nothing burger(s)'.

Your heart/mind ain't in the right place.

Humble yourself first.

Loopy loopy here... Yet again, harken back to the billion yards of the created concrete slab, where cracks and weeds later develop. Spoiler alert, the 'creator's intention was not for later living things to manifest.

Nothing burger.

Further, (again), why would a "creator", 1) who's intention is to design an environment for humans, 'create' one where 99.9999999% is lethal to humans, and 2) a planet itself, where the vast majority of it is also inhabitable to humans?

Respectfully, I can care less about your assessment.

I'm just asking how a 1 chance in 10^10^123 (moving forward, this will be known as PE; for Penrose's equation)...I just wanna know how those odds can be met...on naturalism.

And the bank, and all of its surrounding, is 'nothing' too?

Please answer the question.

[POI]

Please pray, as asked in red Venom -- (from the prior post). Your continued avoidance more and more confirms the obvious, in which we already know. Prayer is talking to yourself.

I said a UNIVERSE from a state of nothingness.

Here is where wordplay and context are important Venom. We already both agree that 'true nothingness' was never a thing. Hence, prior to our observable 'universe', what existed prior? I'll patiently await even more apologetic assertion(s).

Abiogenesis and macroevolution; neither are science.

Well, I spoon fed you a 4-minute video which objectively demonstrates 'macroevolution', or the big 'E'. However, I now know that even if you accepted it, you would merely severely PIVOT in your position. Hence, there is really no point in wasting time. You also either purposefully misrepresent peer view, or you still have no idea what it really is. Either way, I can no longer engage in the madness.

1 chance in 10^10^123.

The chance is actually '1'. Couple this with the facts presented with the Dover trial alone, and the gaps for god get even smaller than you thought they already were.

I'm now operating under the premise that God doesn't exist...so appealing to prayer makes no sense.

We all know this is a lie. Please pray, as you claim a prayer answering Jesus exists; and convert me.

Now, on naturalism... explain.

1. A universe from nothing.

2. Abiogenesis.

3. The origins of consciousness.

4. Fine-tuning of the universe.

5. Traversal of infinity.

Since you wish to play games, so now will I. "I'm now operating under the premise that God exists...so appealing to science makes no sense."

Let's make a deal, I'll address those 5 points from Carroll...if you can adequately address the above 5 points, from me.

Your deals are one-sided Venom. I've already presented a deal with you, for which you flat out refused. Remember? And quite frankly, We all know you haven't watched what I asked regardless.

Seriously address those 5 points..and until then, spare all of us from countless threads of crying about lack of evidence.

I have told you, countless times now, that the only evidence I need, for which would both convert me into deism/theism, as well as causing me to become a Christian, is your self-professed power of prayer. You refuse because you know prayer does not really do anything.

Do you know about Jesus? Yes.

Have you accepted him yet? No.

Sounds like a you, thing.

Nope, it's definitely a you thing. As the onus has been placed squarely upon you, who repeatedly asserts that Jesus answers your prayer and also that Jesus is the only way. You want me converted. Jesus also desperately wants me to worship him. Jesus apparently answers prayer. I state he skipped my prayers, but you instead state he answers yours. Tell me my car's VIN number and where my daughter works, and I will immediately be on team Jesus. Failure to perform this 10-second task speaks volumes.

And for decades you've been on here arguing against God's existence. Hmm. Let that sink in for a sec.

Right, because blank asserters, given by you and others, continue with no action(s) to back them up. And it's quite telling.... Let that sink in for a sec, or more....

Someone tell our unbelieving friend, that "no" is an answer. I guess he thinks we live in a perfect world where the answer is "yes" to all of his inquiries.

This would make sense if I was asking for your prayer to promote 'evil.' But this response is just another janky apologetic in which 'apologists' must do to protect the madness.

All I see from you, over the course of your MANY years as a member of this forum is.. Bad-faith inquiries...along with unnecessary, probing questions, and countless, sensationalized threads. Let it go. Christianity just ain't for you.

More excuses. Nothing more.

You're being demeaning/derogatory..by calling Jesus a flying sky carcass. First of all, a carcass is dead...which Jesus isn't...which is focal point of the entire religion in the first place. Second, you say crap like that^, but then expect God to answer your prayers? No, humble yourself and prostrate yourself before the Almighty and ask for forgiveness. Do that first, and then we can talk about prayers.

The excuse-meter is going off the charts now...

No. I am not under that impression.

Then how might god invoke any action(s) outside of time?

I agree...but no one is saying that Tacitus affirms the resurrection or appearances. The point is, according to Tacitus, Jesus' crucifixion coincides with the reign of Tiberius, and the governorship of Pontius Pilate...which harmonizes with the Gospel accounts. And that a mischievous superstition arose as a result of Jesus' crucifixion, which also coincides with the Gospel account. Funny, because every time conversations like this arises, skeptics always try to unnecessarily move the goal posts, by telling us what it doesn't say. That's cool, because we can get by just fine based on what it DOES say.

My personal position is that it's going to take some pretty solid evidence to believe claims made about the extraordinary. All you need to do is to tell me my VIN number and tell me where my daughter works and voila! I will ride and die for Jesus. Can you do it?

First of all, the stories weren't circulating legends.

Yes. they were. We know this simply by reading the additions added as later accounts rolled out, from early Mark to later Mark, and then the rest of the later Gospels to follow. This is what legends are made of...

Legends develope between 40 to 60 decades after the fact.

A legend can develop in as little as 15 to 20 years in the modern digital age, or it can take two generations (40 to 50 years) in traditional folklore. However, the exact timeline depends heavily on how information is shared and the context of the story. Being that the Gospels are untrustworthy, then there-you-go.

The belief in Jesus' resurrection...3-5 years after the fact. So, stop it.

No one denies that people believed. People believe all sorts of wild tales. But we both know the Gospels accounts are wacked, So, stop it.

1 Corin 15-3-8.

Great, that's one fella, who claims others saw stuff, without their actual corroboration of the claims --- (unlike the actual corroborated reports by Joseph Smith in finding Golden plates issued by 'god'), for which you conveniently reject. But yea, you call me inconsistent. Got anything else?

Your heart/mind ain't in the right place.

More excuses is all.

Nothing burger.

This is code for 'handwave.'

Respectfully, I can care less about your assessment.

I don't blame the complete and blatant handwave here either.

I'm just asking how a 1 chance in 10^10^123 (moving forward, this will be known as PE; for Penrose's equation)...I just wanna know how those odds can be met...on naturalism.

It's actually '1'. If you are going to live by science, then you will also die by science.

[Difflugia]

I'm just asking how a 1 chance in 10^10^123 (moving forward, this will be known as PE; for Penrose's equation)...I just wanna know how those odds can be met...on naturalism.

Penrose answered that himself. In order for your 10¹⁰¹²³ thing to be meaningful, Penrose has to be right about a bunch of science that you otherwise deny, but then be wrong about his solution to the problem. That's the exact form of the taxicab fallacy that you're so fond of.

[SiNcE_1985]

Please pray, as asked in red Venom -- (from the prior post). Your continued avoidance more and more confirms the obvious, in which we already know. Prayer is talking to yourself.

You: Prayer is a waste of time.

Also you,

Pray: Pray for me.

Just, one contradiction after the other.

Here is where wordplay and context are important Venom. We already both agree that 'true nothingness' was never a thing. Hence, prior to our observable 'universe', what existed prior? I'll patiently await even more apologetic assertion(s).

The universe (STEM) began to exist...and everything that begins to exist, has a cause.

So, what could give STEM is beginning?

About the 40th time I asked this, and you've yet to provide a rational response.

Well, I spoon fed you a 4-minute video which objectively demonstrates 'macroevolution', or the big 'E'. However, I now know that even if you accepted it, you would merely severely PIVOT in your position. Hence, there is really no point in wasting time. You also either purposefully misrepresent peer view, or you still have no idea what it really is. Either way, I can no longer engage in the madness.

I have no interest of discussing evolution anyway.

But anytime you begin to talk condescendingly, or mock Christianity in any antagonizing way, I'll do the same about evolution or any of the other bogus naturalistic theories out there.

The chance is actually '1'.

Those odds aren't being met, on just one attempt.

Couple this with the facts presented with the Dover trial alone, and the gaps for god get even smaller than you thought they already were.

Were the PE equations discussed at Dover trial?

We all know this is a lie. Please pray, as you claim a prayer answering Jesus exists; and convert me.

Humble yourself, and I'll think about it.

Since you wish to play games, so now will I. "I'm now operating under the premise that God exists...so appealing to science makes no sense."

I'm fine with not appealing to science. If I have God, I don't need science.

So, I'm cool with that.

Your deals are one-sided Venom. I've already presented a deal with you, for which you flat out refused. Remember? And quite frankly, We all know you haven't watched what I asked regardless.

I thought it is a good, fair deal.

I have told you, countless times now, that the only evidence I need, for which would both convert me into deism/theism, as well as causing me to become a Christian, is your self-professed power of prayer. You refuse because you know prayer does not really do anything.

Humble yourself, first.

Nope, it's definitely a you thing. As the onus has been placed squarely upon you, who repeatedly asserts that Jesus answers your prayer and also that Jesus is the only way. You want me converted. Jesus also desperately wants me to worship him. Jesus apparently answers prayer. I state he skipped my prayers, but you instead state he answers yours. Tell me my car's VIN number and where my daughter works, and I will immediately be on team Jesus. Failure to perform this 10-second task speaks volumes.

Humble yourself.

Right, because blank asserters, given by you and others, continue with no action(s) to back them up. And it's quite telling.... Let that sink in for a sec, or more....

I have my own personal testimony, of which my prayers and my faith have been validated.

Unbelievers can't relate...which is why you can't relate and it is all foolishness to you.

1 Corin 1:18 explains why it is foolishness to you.

This would make sense if I was asking for your prayer to promote 'evil.' But this response is just another janky apologetic in which 'apologists' must do to protect the madness.

I'm not sending prayers up to God, for someone who mocks his Son.

Then how might god invoke any action(s) outside of time?

Strawman. I never make such assertion.

My personal position is that it's going to take some pretty solid evidence to believe claims made about the extraordinary. All you need to do is to tell me my VIN number and tell me where my daughter works and voila! I will ride and die for Jesus. Can you do it?

I can't. I'm not God.

Yes. they were. We know this simply by reading the additions added as later accounts rolled out, from early Mark to later Mark, and then the rest of the later Gospels to follow. This is what legends are made of...

Um, no.

Paul's epistles predate the Gospels, and Paul already had Jesus risen, appearing, and deified before the Gospels were even circulating.

So again, this is early attestation.

A legend can develop in as little as 15 to 20 years in the modern digital age, or it can take two generations (40 to 50 years) in traditional folklore.

Sounds like you agree with me.

However, the exact timeline depends heavily on how information is shared and the context of the story. Being that the Gospels are untrustworthy, then there-you-go.

Opinions.

No one denies that people believed. People believe all sorts of wild tales. But we both know the Gospels accounts are wacked, So, stop it.

No, you said that the Gospels grew in legend...while saying that traditional legends can take up to 50 years to develope.

And I simply stated that 3-5 years after the events doesn't met your 40-50-years-legend criterion.

Thus, the stories about Jesus weren't legendary, as you claimed.

Great, that's one fella, who claims others saw stuff, without their actual corroboration of the claims --- (unlike the actual corroborated reports by Joseph Smith in finding Golden plates issued by 'god'), for which you conveniently reject. But yea, you call me inconsistent. Got anything else?

You asked for it, and you got it.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #431]

@POI, those 500 eyewitnesses were willing to suffer and die to maintain their testimonies. That's why I believe their testimonies; they are authentic ones. How else can you verify any historical event but through people who experienced it?

By the way, many of them suffered great persecution from three different groups, but they held to their stories that they saw Jesus alive from the dead, even though they had been devastated because of his death.