"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #426]

You have wasted a whole lot of time and space here by talking about the WTS. I do not know about, nor do I care about the WTS. The WTS has nothing whatsoever to do with what you and I are debating. What I do know and care about is the fact that you want to call me out for telling folks that "Christ's words do not apply to them,"

Which is what the WTS says to people as well.

while you are ignoring the fact that you do not believe that every word from Christ applies to you, or anyone else today. This is demonstrated by the fact that you will not, do not, and cannot claim that when Jesus was speaking to the 12, and only the 12, and told them,

"the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father."

There is no difference, and yet you do not claim the above passage applies to you, nor anyone else today, but when we get to your preferred verse just a few sentences later, in the same exact conversation with the same exact 12, you somehow want to insist this passage would apply to you.

I have not claimed that passage does not apply to anyone today.

Christ said 'the one who believes in me' - sounds to me like the passage applies to the one who believes in Him.

You will then say 'what possible greater works is anyone today doing'... and I would suggest that what someone considers to be 'greater works' is subjective. Because what are the 'greater works' that the apostles did? I'm not suggesting they did not do 'greater works', I'm just asking what you think those works were?

But since He said 'the one who believes in me', then I trust that He meant 'the one who believes in me.' If I receive something more, and am permitted, I will share it.

**

That being said - even if I had been applying a double standard - it would not change the fact that you are applying a double standard. It would just mean that we were both doing something wrong.

"The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”

This applies to the one who loves Him (the one who loves Him is the one who has His commandments and keeps them.) People then and people today as well.

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear so as to hear the truth of this matter from the One who is the Truth: Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH. May anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes, hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

Yeah! Yeah! We have heard you over, and over, and the fact is the words above come straight out of what is contained in the Bible, not from your claimed direct line to Jesus. In other words, you continue to claim to hear directly from Jesus, and yet you always continue to use what is contained in the Bible. The problem is as you admit, you have no clue as to how to understand the Bible, but it is clear beyond a doubt that you know when you cannot claim a passage would apply to you, and that is when you cannot demonstrate the ability the passage is describing. On the other hand, anyone can claim to have a direct line to Jesus, when that is all that is involved is a claim.

But the thing is, the passage does not say a thing in the world about "hearing the truth on this matter."

So you complain if I quote from the bible and you complain if I do not.

Paul tells Timothy who is a pastor, which is why Paul says, "the man of God" and Paul tells this pastor that the scripture is able to make the "man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work," and we have access to these same scriptures, and even more, can we suppose that these same scriptures have this same ability for us? On the other hand, when Jesus is speaking personally to His students, and making promises to these students, and promising them access to things we are not promised access to, which would you believe would apply to us?

There is no difference between Paul speaking directly to Timothy and saying 'the man of God', and Christ speaking directly to his apostles and saying 'the one who loves me.'


Peace again.

[tam]

Peace still,

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #430]
My whole point here is the fact that it is an extreme insult for one to claim to have a direct line to Christ like these men, without claiming to have any of these other abilities, while it is costing them absolutely nothing whatsoever, while they are warm, safe, and snug, typing away on their computer day after day, week after week, month after month.

Jack, this is just an attempt to shame me into denying my Lord. This is not going to happen. I am not going to deny Him.

[tam]

Peace again to you all,

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #430]

Here is an example of Christ speaking to the Twelve when they were alone - and yet, His words were meant for more than just the Twelve.

On the night Christ was betrayed, at the last supper, He took the bread and said to the apostles, 'this is my body, given for you, take and eat'... and then with the wine He said 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'

He spoke this directly to the apostles. No one else was present. Yet His words, His command, applied to more than just the apostles.

We can know this by His words in John 6 - where He says that anyone may eat and drink.

But also, not too long later, Paul writes to the Corinthians about how they were eating and drinking the bread and wine that mean the body and blood of Christ. Both Paul and the Corinthians knew that these words spoken to the apostles applied to more than just the apostles; these words and that command applied to them as well.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #0]

Which is what the WTS says to people as well.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we are talking about. Next, you have failed to address the fact that you do the same exact thing. You want to claim the passage in which Jesus says, "I will reveal myself to them" applies to you, however, when we read, "the one who loves me will do greater works than me" this does not apply to you. The thing is you want to act as if I am at fault for not allowing the whole of the Bible to apply to all today, but it is a fact that you would not, and do not claim that the whole of the words of Jesus, nor everything in the Bible would apply to all today. What you have done, and are doing is to pick and choose what would apply to you, ignoring any and all context in the process. Moreover, you want to get up on your high horse and rant about those who follow the doctrine of man, while even you admit that you did not get the idea that you have a direct line to Christ from reading the Bible, nor did you get the idea by Christ speaking to you and telling you this, but rather you absolutely admit you got the idea that you have a direct line to Christ, directly from the "doctrine of man."

I have not claimed that passage does not apply to anyone today.

Do you love Christ? If so, then according to you, it would apply to you. So then, are you doing greater works than Christ? I can tell you this. Claiming to have a direct line to Christ, with absolutely no way to demonstrate this to be the case, is not in any way doing greater works than Christ.

Christ said 'the one who believes in me' - sounds to me like the passage applies to the one who believes in Him.

This puts you in a very bad position. You claim to love Christ. Are you doing the greater works than Christ?

You will then say 'what possible greater works is anyone today doing'... and I would suggest that what someone considers to be 'greater works' is subjective.

And the "subjective" is exactly what you would like to hide behind, but it is not going to cut it. Because you see, the works that Christ preformed were not subjective. Rather, they were real, historical, and documented. Christ then, while having an intimate conversation with the 12, went on to tell the 12, and He was only referring to the 12, and said, "the one who loves Me will do greater works then Me." These men go out with this promise, along with the authority which Christ had given them, and they performed exactly what Christ had predicted, by doing the works of Christ, and even greater, and it was not subjective works. Rather, the work of the 12, was real, historical, and documented. Moreover, these 12 men are responsible for the greatest impact upon the history of the entire world, and again, it was not subjective. I mean, think about this for a moment? Jesus lived, was crucified, dead, and buried, and Jesus left us nothing in writing, and even so the Name of Jesus is the most recognized Name in the history of the world, and these 12 men were responsible for this being the case, and it is a fact which cannot be denied that if it were not for these men, you would have never, ever, known the Name of Christ, if it had not been for these 12 men. In other words, you would have never, ever known about Christ whom you now claim to have a direct line to, if it had not been for the works of these men.

I can tell you this. These men giving up their lives, for the cause of a Man who was crucified, who left nothing in writing Himself, and going on to cause the whole world to know the Name of this crucified Man, and also causing the events surrounding the crucifixion to have the greatest impact in the history of the entire world, without pen, without paper, without television, without computer, without social media, etc. is the greatest work in human history, and nothing compares, and nothing ever will compare, to the work these men performed, and it was real, it was historical, it was documented, and it continues to have an impact some 2000 years later, and above all, it was in no way subjective.

All of the above goes to demonstrate, that Jesus was addressing the 12, and the promises made in that conversation only applied to the 12, and these 12 took these promises made to them, along with the authority they had been given, and they went on to perform the greatest feat in human history, and it was by no means subjective, and one should be absolutely ashamed to suggest that the works Christ was referring too, may have been subjective.

But since He said 'the one who believes in me', then I trust that He meant 'the one who believes in me.' If I receive something more, and am permitted, I will share it.

The above is a prime example of the subjective.

That being said - even if I had been applying a double standard - it would not change the fact that you are applying a double standard. It would just mean that we were both doing something wrong.

I am not above applying a double standard, but it is not happening here. There is a tremendous difference between Jesus having an intimate private conversation with the 12 men He had chosen to be his ambassadors on this earth in His absence as He prepared them for His departure, which is the context of this entire passage, and these same men, minus Judas, go on to take these promises, along with the authority Christ had given them, and go on to do the greater works Christ had described, to the point that the Name Jesus is the most recognized Name in the history of the world because of these men, and understanding that the promises were only intended for these men who would perform these works, as opposed to when Paul tells Timothy, "the scriptures are able to make the man of God complete." Because you see, I am not saying that what Paul tells Timothy applies to us today. Rather, I am saying that either what Paul told Timothy is a fact that, "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete" or it is not. The former where Christ is making specific promises to specific people, is different from Paul telling Timothy that which is a fact.

This applies to the one who loves Him (the one who loves Him is the one who has His commandments and keeps them.) People then and people today as well.

The obvious question is, are you doing greater works than Christ? We know these 12 men did, because the works were real, historical, documented, and they were not subjective because we have the proof of their works still with us some 2000 years later. I know you are fully aware that raising the dead is a great work, which both Jesus and the apostles performed, and there is no work you are performing today which you would even claim to subjectively be on the same level. Your whole experience of Christ is on a subjective level, and there is nothing objective about it. However, the fact of the matter is, Christ did not die and raise again inside your heart. Rather, Christ died outside of you in real time, in real space, and in real history, and it was objective, not subjective.

So you complain if I quote from the bible and you complain if I do not.

The problem is not whether you quote the Bible or not. The problem is, the Bible uses the phrase, "those with ears let them hear" on a number of occasions, and it has nothing to do with what you and I are discussing. Ergo, you are using a Biblical phrase to support your argument. What is contained in the Bible is Biblical. What you are typing out with your fingers, not so much.

There is no difference between Paul speaking directly to Timothy and saying 'the man of God', and Christ speaking directly to his apostles and saying 'the one who loves me.'

There is a tremendous difference as described above. One is a conversation between Jesus and those He chose, and Jesus is making promises to these men in preparation for His departure, as He prepares them for His betrayal, and these men go on to demonstrate this by having the most enormous impact upon the history of the world, as opposed to Paul informing Timothy, "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete."

Allow me to demonstrate this further. If I pick up a note from my kitchen table addressed to my wife, and this note is from her boss, and I read in this note where her boss tells her, "anyone who shows up an hour early for work in the morning will receive a $1000.00 bonus," do you imagine that I can expect to receive that same bonus if I were to show up to my workplace an hour early? Of course, not! However, let us go on to suppose that at the end of the note her boss tells her, "BTW just wanted to let you know the box store down the road is having a big sale in the morning, and the first 100 people there will receive 50% off their entire purchase."

Now, are you having any trouble at all understanding that the promise of a bonus would not apply to me, nor anyone else who was not employed by that particular workplace, as opposed to the statement concerning the big sale, that would apply to anyone at all? Sort of strange how that works, isn't it? I mean, here you are claiming to have a direct line to Jesus, and yet you have no problem identifying what would apply to you as opposed to what would not when it comes to other written material, but for some strange reason, even with a direct line to Jesus, you do not possess the same ability when it comes to what has been given to us by the Spirit.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #432]

Jack, this is just an attempt to shame me into denying my Lord. This is not going to happen. I am not going to deny Him.

Oh, you should absolutely be ashamed to claim to have a direct line to Christ, after the 12 that Christ chose did all they did in order for you to have all you need in Christ, and you insist for more than what they have supplied. However, this has nothing whatsoever to do with denying the Lord. In other words, simply because one does not claim to have a direct line to Christ, does not mean they are denying the Lord.

There have been thousands, upon thousands of folks down through the centuries, who have never claimed to have received any sort of communication from Christ directly, who have dedicated their lives to Christ, who have poured themselves over the scriptures (which btw are able to make you complete) and the Spirit has worked through these folks, and they have given great, and wonderful insights into the things of God, and you actually have the nerve to suggest these folks are simply passing on the doctrine of man, while you sit back with very little knowledge of the scripture which is able to make us complete, and insist that you have a greater insight then all these folks, because you have found the way in which to by-pass the scripture, because you have a direct line to the source.

I mean, you are actually encouraging folk to ignore what the 12 have said, done, and performed, along with all the hundreds, and hundreds of folks who have poured over the scriptures, being led by the Spirit, because you have found a way in which one does not have to "show themselves approved of God, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth," because according to you, all such folks are carrying on the "doctrine of man" while you sit back, with very little knowledge of the scripture in the least, while you insist that what you have is far superior than what we have contained in the Bible, along with what we have gleaned from those who have dedicated themselves to Christ, and the scripture which is "able to make the man of God complete."

I want to go back where I quote Paul when he says,

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Paul here says to "STUDY" and he is telling Timothy to study the scriptures, which Paul says are able to make us complete, while you are telling us there is no need in studying the scripture, because the scripture cannot possibly make us complete, and we can by-pass the scripture and go straight to the source. Paul tells Timothy to be a "workman," while you are telling us there should be no work at all involved in the study of scripture, because you have a direct line to the source. But the main thing here I want to point out is when Paul says, "need not be ashamed." Because you see, you are actually shaming folks who dedicate themselves to the scripture, while Paul is telling Timothy that one who studies the scripture as a "workman need not be ashamed." You are telling me that I am attempting to shame you into denying the Lord, and nothing could be further from the truth. However, you should be ashamed, for portraying yourself as being on a completely higher plain than those who have dedicated themselves as a "workman" of the scripture, who has brought us all great insights, and I am not ashamed to call such folks brothers, and sisters in Christ, and I am forever thankful for what they have done.

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, who was given authority by Christ, who gave his life in order for us to have life, and it was this same Paul who told Timothy to "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth" and it was Paul in the very same letter to Timothy who told Timothy, this same scripture is "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." This is what the Apostle Paul had to say, with authority from Christ. On the other hand, we have you who has no credentials whatsoever, with no authority whatsoever, who claims to have a direct line to Christ with no proof, nor even evidence whatsoever, who is contradicting what Paul who was chosen by Christ has to say. Please do tell us now Tammy, which one of you do we listen to?

[tam]

Peace again,

[Replying to tam in post #0]

Which is what the WTS says to people as well.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we are talking about.

It does, but I don't have anything to add to what was already said.

Next, you have failed to address the fact that you do the same exact thing.

I addressed the accusation. You did not read far enough before you commented.

(snipping out parts that no longer apply)

Moreover, you want to get up on your high horse and rant about those who follow the doctrine of man

Where exactly have I 'ranted' about those who follow the doctrine of man?

If you feel like I am on a 'high horse', I think that might be on you, Jack.

, while even you admit that you did not get the idea that you have a direct line to Christ from reading the Bible, nor did you get the idea by Christ speaking to you and telling you this, but rather you absolutely admit you got the idea that you have a direct line to Christ, directly from the "doctrine of man."

I did not get the idea that 'I have a direct line to Christ' from another person.

I got the idea that Christ could speak in the first place from the witness another person gave.

I then also read where He said His sheep would listen to His voice. I read where He did indeed speak after His death and resurrection and ascension.

I had no reason to doubt it after that, and I did not.

I then asked also for ears to hear. In the meantime, I would continue to serve and obey God and His Son as best as I could.

It is my Lord who reminded me of the times it had been Him speaking to me when I was a child (and older) before I ever even considered the possibility that He could speak.

Even though the evidence (that could be seen, from what is written) had been right there in front of my face all along.

So I am not following a doctrine of man. No one has to do that.

I know that my Lord lives and speaks and that His sheep listen to His voice.

I know that it is possible for others to come to Him and to ask for ears to hear as well. Because this happened for me.

I have not claimed that passage does not apply to anyone today.

Do you love Christ? If so, then according to you, it would apply to you.

Yes.

Christ said 'the one who believes in me' - sounds to me like the passage applies to the one who believes in Him.

This puts you in a very bad position. You claim to love Christ. Are you doing the greater works than Christ?

You will then say 'what possible greater works is anyone today doing'... and I would suggest that what someone considers to be 'greater works' is subjective.

And the "subjective" is exactly what you would like to hide behind, but it is not going to cut it. Because you see, the works that Christ preformed were not subjective

.

The works were not subjective. What someone considers to be 'greater', however, is subjective. People have different ideas of what that might mean.

But since He said 'the one who believes in me', then I trust that He meant 'the one who believes in me.' If I receive something more, and am permitted, I will share it.

The above is a prime example of the subjective.

That being said - even if I had been applying a double standard - it would not change the fact that you are applying a double standard. It would just mean that we were both doing something wrong.

I am not above applying a double standard, but it is not happening here.

It is, but there isn't much more I can do to make you see it. I mean, it seems like you should see it since you are claiming I am doing the same thing - how could you think I am doing the same thing if you aren't doing it, yourself?

This applies to the one who loves Him (the one who loves Him is the one who has His commandments and keeps them.) People then and people today as well.

The obvious question is, are you doing greater works than Christ? We know these 12 men did, because the works were real, historical, documented, and they were not subjective because we have the proof of their works still with us some 2000 years later. I know you are fully aware that raising the dead is a great work, which both Jesus and the apostles performed, and there is no work you are performing today which you would even claim to subjectively be on the same level. Your whole experience of Christ is on a subjective level, and there is nothing objective about it. However, the fact of the matter is, Christ did not die and raise again inside your heart. Rather, Christ died outside of you in real time, in real space, and in real history, and it was objective, not subjective.

Yes - to the bold.

And He actually really truly is alive. Some people treat Him as if He were dead - because dead people cannot speak.

But He is not dead. He is alive. He is a living being - the living WORD of God.

He lives. He speaks. Just as He said He would.

And while you want to keep stating that His words only applied to the apostles (even though He said 'whoever', instead of just 'you')... He is most certainly not speaking only to the apostles here:

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.


That is just one more witness on top of all the other examples, and on top of His own words where He said He would call His sheep by name, that His sheep will follow Him because they recognize His voice.

So you complain if I quote from the bible and you complain if I do not.

The problem is not whether you quote the Bible or not. The problem is, the Bible uses the phrase, "those with ears let them hear" on a number of occasions, and it has nothing to do with what you and I are discussing. Ergo, you are using a Biblical phrase to support your argument. What is contained in the Bible is Biblical. What you are typing out with your fingers, not so much.

I'm not sure even you know what you are taking issue with here.

There is no difference between Paul speaking directly to Timothy and saying 'the man of God', and Christ speaking directly to his apostles and saying 'the one who loves me.'

There is a tremendous difference as described above. One is a conversation between Jesus and those He chose, and Jesus is making promises to these men in preparation for His departure, as He prepares them for His betrayal, and these men go on to demonstrate this by having the most enormous impact upon the history of the world, as opposed to Paul informing Timothy, "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete."

Allow me to demonstrate this further. If I pick up a note from my kitchen table addressed to my wife, and this note is from her boss, and I read in this note where her boss tells her, "anyone who shows up an hour early for work in the morning will receive a $1000.00 bonus," do you imagine that I can expect to receive that same bonus if I were to show up to my workplace an hour early?

If you have the same boss, yes.

I have the same boss (Master, Lord) as the apostles.



Peace again to you.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #436]

I know that it is possible for others to come to Him and to ask for ears to hear as well. Because this happened for me.

And as you have also said in passing, you wouldn't expect that this means they have to hear a voice in their head calling itself Christ. You have agreed in principle that there are any number of ways someone can have "ears to hear"...

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #0]

It does, but I don't have anything to add to what was already said.

No, it does not. But again, you do the same exact thing in that you as well do not take all the words of Jesus to apply to all. In other words, you pick and choose as to what you prefer to apply to you, which means your criteria for what applies to you is what you prefer as opposed to context.

I addressed the accusation. You did not read far enough before you commented.

(snipping out parts that no longer apply)

No, you have not addressed it, rather you typed out some words, and we will get to it in just a moment.

Where exactly have I 'ranted' about those who follow the doctrine of man?

If you feel like I am on a 'high horse', I think that might be on you, Jack.

Below are your own words,

"This is a doctrine of men - men who interpreted this from the bible. Men who CANNOT have learned that interpretation from Christ or God - because according to you and them, Christ does not speak. And so they MUST have interpreted this based on their OWN reasoning (including their own biases, their own 'deceitful hearts' - what do you think influences you when you are relying upon yourself and your own interpretations/knowledge?)"

"The men or religion who teach that doctrine also could not have learned it from Him."

"So I am not following a doctrine of man."

The above is just a couple of examples. You have gone on to talk about how you were influenced by others, and how you had to "tear it all down," and you have even talked about how you do not even bother with the interpretation of the scriptures, because you have no need in interpretation since you now depend totally on your direct communication. Your whole point of this direct line is the fact that you are on a different plain than those of us who depend on the scriptures. You insist the scripture is not sufficient, which goes on to mean that those of us who depend on the scriptures do not really have Christ. You have talked about how I depend on my own interpretation, and insist my interpretation is correct, while you know my interpretation cannot be correct, not because you have given a correct interpretation but rather because you have a direct line to the source.

So yes. let us talk about who is on the "high horse." I give you an interpretation of when Paul says "we take every thought captive" and it is not that I am on my "high horse" insisting that I must and have to be correct, rather it is I know I am correct because I have done the work that it takes in order to understand the passage. I am more than willing to debate the issue, and I have demonstrated beyond any doubt whatsoever that this was not in any way a command to the Corinthians to "take every thought captive" but was rather a warning to the Corinthians that if they did not straighten up their act, they would discover Paul & company had the ability, and the authority from Christ to "take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ." I do not have to be on the "high horse" to insist this is the correct interpretation.

You then get on your "high horse" to say this to me,

If you are suggesting 'mind control' then you have not demonstrated anything other than your personal interpretation (and you certainly haven't demonstrated it beyond any doubt.)

I have no idea what you mean by mind control, what I do know is that the interpretation is correct, and you do not engage at all as far as attempting to give another interpretation, but rather go off on some tangent concerning mind control, as if my interpretation was correct, that Paul was involved in some sort of mind control, as if you know better than Paul. The whole point here is that I am giving the correct, and only interpretation of the passage which can cause the passage to have any sort of sense, and you do not even bother with any sort of interpretation of the passage, because you really have no need in the scripture, nor the interpretation, because you have a direct line to the source, and I cannot argue with one who is so high minded as to have no need for what has been reveal to us all outside of us, since you have all the answers revealed to you on the inside.

I did not get the idea that 'I have a direct line to Christ' from another person.

I got the idea that Christ could speak in the first place from the witness another person gave.

Now, I know you are on a far higher plain than I am, and with this being the case, you are going to have to explain the difference between the two above.

I then also read where He said His sheep would listen to His voice.

We have also read where Jesus said, "I am the vine and you are the branches" but we do not go around acting like actual branches, now do we?

I read where He did indeed speak after His death and resurrection and ascension.

You continue to fail to demonstrate how reading (in the scriptures btw) about those in Biblical times heard from Jesus translates into we should hear from Jesus as well? I mean, you read in scripture where the apostles were performing "many signs, wonders, and miracles," but I do not see any of this today. Why is it that when we read in scripture concerning the actions of these men, that the only action we are to suppose applies to us, is the hearing from Christ directly, and not the other activity which could be absolutely verified?

I had no reason to doubt it after that, and I did not.

I have no doubt in my mind that you did not doubt it. But here is the thing. There are a whole lot of other folks who are claiming to hear directly from Jesus, and they have no doubt about it just like you, but they are contradicting the things you have to say.

In the meantime, I would continue to serve and obey God and His Son as best as I could.

What sort of service does God, and or Christ need from you?

It is my Lord who reminded me of the times it had been Him speaking to me when I was a child (and older) before I ever even considered the possibility that He could speak.

It kind of makes me wonder why the Lord waited so long to do this sort of thing? Was there something preventing Christ from being able to do it earlier? Did He need some sort of assistance from you, or someone else?

Even though the evidence (that could be seen, from what is written) had been right there in front of my face all along.

You mean the scriptures which have scribal errors? You mean, like reading where someone in scripture heard from Christ directly, and it is obvious this should apply to us today, as opposed to reading about how they also performed signs, wonders, and miracles, and how it is obvious that this would not apply to us today?

So I am not following a doctrine of man. No one has to do that.

So then, those of us who depend on the hundreds, upon hundreds of folks down through the centuries, who have poured over the scripture, "showing themselves approved of God, a workman who does not have to be ashamed," the insights we have gained from such folks, is simply the "doctrine of man" while you are on a much higher plain than those of us who depend on such folk?

I know that my Lord lives and speaks and that His sheep listen to His voice.

I know that Oral Roberts believed that. I know that Keneth Copeland believes that. I know that Benny Hin believes that. I know that Paula White believes that. All of these folks believe they are hearing directly from God. Would you agree this is the case?

I know that it is possible for others to come to Him and to ask for ears to hear as well. Because this happened for me.

Well then! If it happened to you then this certainly settles the case. And all I have to do is to "ask for ears to hear?" That's it?

Moving on. If you say you believe in Christ, and you agree that this would mean the passage in which Jesus says, "the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do" applies to you, the question is, are you doing greater works then Christ? Did the apostles do greater works than Christ?

The works were not subjective. What someone considers to be 'greater', however, is subjective. People have different ideas of what that might mean.

Tammy, I addressed this in my last post, and I want to focus in on this because it is ridiculous! Jesus raised the dead; Paul raised the dead. The apostles performed signs, wonders, and miracles which were documented. The apostles took the promises Christ gave them, along with the authority they were given by Christ, and they went on to cause the Name of Christ to be the most well-known Name in all the world, and some 2000 years later and counting. There has been no greater work in all of history, nor will there ever be, than the works these men performed, and it is absolutely ridiculous to even suggest that someone else may have a different opinion, and that this opinion would even enter into the equation.

I mean, Christ made these promises to these men, these men go out with these promises along with the authority they had been given, and they go on to perform the greatest work in the history of the world, just as Jesus predicted, and you want to suggest that someone else may have a different opinion? REALLY?

It is, but there isn't much more I can do to make you see it. I mean, it seems like you should see it since you are claiming I am doing the same thing - how could you think I am doing the same thing if you aren't doing it, yourself?

Yeah! I do not know what else to say myself. Are you under the impression that everything that Jesus said which is recorded in the Bible would apply to you? Certainly not! Okay, this would mean you have to use the context in order to determine which, if any would apply to you. With this being said, you take a passage, and in this passage, you want to insist that when Jesus is speaking to the apostles, in a private conversation and promises them that,

"the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him"

You want to insist this promise applies to you as well. However, in this very same passage, where Jesus is speaking to these very same men, and Jesus makes this promise,

"the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do"

You either do not claim this promise applies to you as well, or you will have to demonstrate where you are performing greater works than Christ just like the apostles. Your solution to this is to suggest that what greater works could be, can be left up to the subjective opinions, and I know there is no way you can believe this to be the case. It is just not a possibility. The problem is you know there has never been, nor ever will be any greater work than what the apostles performed, under the promises, authority, and power of the Holy Spirit, and you are left to suggest that the works you are performing are great works, but how great they are would be left to subjective opinions. Is this the argument you are making?

On the other hand, I look at this passage, and understand that neither promise applies to us, and that these men who Christ made this promise to, go on to actually do greater works than Christ, and these works by these men, brought us the completed scripture, which Paul says with authority from Christ, is "able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

You seem to be arguing that you understand that you are indeed applying a double standard by insisting that one of the promises in this passage applies to us today, but not the other in the very same passage, but then you want to argue that I am doing the same thing by arguing that what Jesus said would not apply to us today, while what Paul said would. The difference is between Jesus making promises to the men He chose, who He is preparing for his departure, as opposed to Paul stating to Timothy that which is a fact. It is not as though I am saying that what Paul tells Timothy applies to us today. It is either a fact that "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete," or it is not. The double standard lies with you in this case.

And He actually really truly is alive.

Agreed!

Some people treat Him as if He were dead - because dead people cannot speak.

Simply because one does not claim to hear from Jesus directly, does not mean they treat Him as though He were dead, nor is it treating Him as if He cannot speak.

But He is not dead. He is alive. He is a living being - the living WORD of God.

Agreed!

He lives. He speaks. Just as He said He would.

He is alive, and He has spoken, and continues to speak through the power of the Holy Spirit, through the means He has ordained, which He gave to us through the promises, and authority He gave to the apostles, and these apostles did greater works than Christ, as they gave up their lives in order for us to have life in Christ, and the work these men performed, has brought to us the completed scriptures, and in these completed scriptures Paul tells us these same scriptures are "able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

The whole point here is you are attempting to make the argument that those of us who do not claim to have a direct line to Christ are treating Him as if He were dead, and this is not the case in the least. It is not even a legitimate argument.

And while you want to keep stating that His words only applied to the apostles (even though He said 'whoever', instead of just 'you')... He is most certainly not speaking only to the apostles here:

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

This is SO, SO, FUNNY! This verse is coming from Revelations, and you and I both agree that we cannot interpret Revelations, and yet here you are even with a direct line to Christ admitting you have no idea what is being said, insisting it is a fact that this verse must apply to you. Okay, well let us see what else in this very same passage would apply to you?

Jesus says to this Church, "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot." Does that apply to you Tammy? Are you guilty of being lukewarm? Jesus goes on the say, "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." Does this apply to you? Is Jesus going to "vomit you out of His mouth? As we continue, would this apply to you as well? "Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked."

Yeah! You see, again, you want to pick and choose those things in these passages which apply to you, while rejecting what you do not prefer. At any rate, allow me to share with you a commentary on this very same passage from the web,

"The idea of Jesus standing at a door and knocking is often used as an illustration of Jesus’ offer of salvation to individuals: if you would only “open your heart’s door” and let Jesus into your life, all will be well. But in Revelation 3:20, Jesus is not pleading with an individual to be saved; He’s seeking admittance to a church! It’s alarming to think of Jesus standing outside of the church and knocking, but that’s the position He was in. The Laodicean church had shut the door on the Head of the church; they were smug in their prosperity, but Jesus was left standing in the cold. He was an outsider to the hearts of the entire congregation."

So then, according to this commentary, the knocking on the door here was the door of the Laodicean church and it has nothing whatsoever to do with you, and yet you continue to insist these passages which have nothing whatsoever to do with you, somehow apply to you. I mean, you act as if everything contained in the Bible has to be about you, and if it is not about you, then it is irrelevant. On the other hand, there are those of us who understand that if nothing in the Bible applied to us, it is still the most powerful book the world has ever encountered, because it reveals Christ to the world.

That is just one more witness on top of all the other examples, and on top of His own words where He said He would call His sheep by name, that His sheep will follow Him because they recognize His voice.

And it is one of the many we have demonstrated would have nothing whatsoever to do with you.

If you have the same boss, yes.

I have the same boss (Master, Lord) as the apostles.

Nice try Tammy. However, all you have done is to demonstrate my point, which is the context which you ignore. Because you see, in this context, it does not matter if you and the apostles have the same boss. Rather, what matters is, whether myself, and my wife have the same boss, and we do not. So then, in the correct context, you could clearly understand what would apply to me, as opposed to what would only apply to those employed at the same company as my wife. In order to make your point, you were forced to twist the context, which you do with most of the scripture, which reminds me of a passage we have already been over,

2 Peter 3:15-16
as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

Now I ask you Tammy, does the above verse apply to you?

[William]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #438]

Did the apostles do greater works than Christ?

Good question. Did they? Did any of Christs followers do greater works than Christ?

[tam]

Peace again to you,

[Replying to tam in post #432]

Jack, this is just an attempt to shame me into denying my Lord. This is not going to happen. I am not going to deny Him.

Oh, you should absolutely be ashamed to claim to have a direct line to Christ, after the 12 that Christ chose did all they did in order for you to have all you need in Christ, and you insist for more than what they have supplied. However, this has nothing whatsoever to do with denying the Lord.

It would mean that for me.

And that is something that I will not do.

I mean, you are actually encouraging folk to ignore what the 12 have said, done, and performed,

The 12 never said that Christ does not speak. The 12 never taught that the promises made to them did not apply to the other disciples. The 12 were told by Christ to teach the disciples to obey everything HE (Christ) had commanded THEM (the apostles.)

I want to go back where I quote Paul when he says,

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Paul here says to "STUDY" and he is telling Timothy to study the scriptures,

That's not how the word 'study' is used in this passage:

Be earnest to present thyself acceptable to God, a worker without shame, dividing rightly the word of truth. - Smith's Literal Translation

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. NKJV

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. ESV

See other translations here: https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-15.htm

Also, see the meaning of the word in the following link (I suggest looking at the examples as well to get a sense of how the word is used, because none of them are using the word study in the way that you are using it):

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

which Paul says are able to make us complete, while you are telling us there is no need in studying the scripture, because the scripture cannot possibly make us complete, and we can by-pass the scripture and go straight to the source.

Christ said 'you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.'


Peace again.