"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #347]

So in answer to the question in bold, if my Lord is bringing something to mind - I can know that it is true.

Where does the truth reside alone? Does truth reside in someone [the small still voice within you] who is not God? Why do you trust someone [the small still voice within you] for the truth when he is absolutely not God? Is the 'small still voice' within you the dwelling place of God today? Did the 'small still voice' within you tell you the Father is in Him, and he is in the Father?

Either way, you clearly understand that faith is not based on what is SEEN.

Where is faith specifically based, then? Why do you say faith is not based on what is seen? How can you have faith if you have not seen the reality of the faith that you'll hold on to until the end?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to William in post #348]

William, I would like to thank you for your observation, reasoned response, and criticism. I really cannot find much to disagree with. With that being said allow me to respond to a couple of points.

The observer would note that RWJ's final post abandons argument altogether. He seizes on Tammy's claim about a knocking sound and asks why her personal Christ would need to mimic a physical knock when He could simply get her out of bed another way. He states he cannot believe he is wasting time typing the question. He wishes her happy trails and hopes her next personal bedtime story is a good one. The mockery is complete.

Your observation is right on the money here. In fact, while I was typing out what you describe above, I said in my mind, "I am mocking her now." I will go on to have to admit that I do indeed struggle with the tone in which I use. My wife has told me on a number of occasions, "it is not that what you are saying is incorrect, it is the way in which you say it." I agree, and understand this to be the case, but many times I do not want to tone down what I am saying, because I want to be certain to be sure it is understood how serious I believe the matter to be.

With all of this being the case, I would like you to know this conversation between me and Tammy started on February 14th, which is over 3 months now. I think there have been a number of times where the conversation has bordered on the ridiculous, and I have attempted to keep the conversation as civil as I possibly could have. However, at the end of 3 months, and you have one who has convinced themselves that The Christ, The Son of God, The One Who was crucified, dead, buried, and rose again from the grave, with this event going on to have the most significant impact in the history of the entire world, because of those who witness the life, teachings, crucifixion, and resurrection, it is far more than "mockery" of Christ, to have Him personally reading stories to you. Moreover, when this same person can tell the tale of hearing a knock which caused them to wake from sleep in order to answer the physical door of their house, only to discover that the knock was an internal knock, this again is far more than mockery.

My point is, this sort of thing is beyond ridiculous, which means we have left the realm of reality, and there is no more need in attempting to carry on a serious conversation with such a one. It is an insult to the intelligence of anyone reading to even have to consider such an idea. This sort of nonsense causes damage to the cause of Christ, and we as Christians need to begin to stand up against such nonsense. The fact is, the atheist, and unbeliever really does no damage at all. Rather, the damage is being done by these sorts of people, and the rest of us as Christians who do not stand up to the nonsense.

Did I mock her? Yes, I did. Did I know this was what I was doing? Yes. The reason I intentionally mocked her, is because she is mocking Jesus Christ, by claiming that He has personally read her stories, and gave her an internal knock, which woke her from sleep, and caused her to go to her door thinking it was a real physical knock at her door. She has also mocked those who witnessed the life, teachings, crucifixion, death, and resurrection, whom Jesus commissioned, with authority, who are responsible for what is contained in the NT, who gave their life for the cause of Christ, who are responsible for the most significant impact the world has ever known, while she is getting personal stories read to her, getting internal knocks from her personal savior, which has cost her absolutely nothing whatsoever, as she types away on her computer, claiming to be on a far superior plane than those of us who take what those who gave their lives for the Gospel have to say seriously, in order for us to have life.

The observer would note that RWJ's shift from reasoned argument to ridicule undermines his own credibility.

I will not argue with you here. However, I think I can demonstrate where we left the realm of reasoned argument a long time ago, and I continued on for weeks to keep it as reasoned as possible. However, when we get to the point where Jesus Christ is personally reading one stories, along with giving one an internal knock which woke one from sleep believing someone was at their physical door, only to discover it was Christ knocking at their internal door, who has already made clear that what they receive personally from Christ, is on a different realm than what we read from those who gave their life in order for us to have life. I hope we can agree that we have left the realm of reality.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #352]

It is an insult to the intelligence of anyone reading to even have to consider such an idea. This sort of nonsense causes damage to the cause of Christ, and we as Christians need to begin to stand up against such nonsense

Since you claim you're a Christian, may we know what the Pastor and Teacher of Christians, across all generations, specifically teach you on how to face, confront, and engage in this sort of 'nonsense,' as you claimed, brought in a conversation/discussion about Christ in a forum like this? What exactly have you heard from your Pastor and Teacher in this regard? And lastly, who’s the one truly affected and tarnished in such a sort of ‘nonsense’ that you coined?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #347]

So in answer to the question in bold, if my Lord is bringing something to mind - I can know that it is true.

Where does the truth reside alone?

The truth IS Christ.

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

Does truth reside in someone [the small still voice within you] who is not God?

"Still small voice" is not the name of a person. Still small voice is a description of a quiet voice.

Not shouting. Quiet.

To your question - Christ is Himself the Truth.

Why do you trust someone [the small still voice within you] for the truth when he is absolutely not God?

I trust the Christ, the Son of God, because He is the One to whom God said to listen and He is the One to whom God led me.

"This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to Him."

He is the Holy One of God. The Chosen One of God (Messiah). The Word of God. The Son of God. He says Himself that He is God's Son, and God said to listen to His Son.

He has never lied to me. I hear the truth in His words. He has kept His promises (those that can happen now), and I know He will keep promises for things yet to come.

He gave His life for me (and not just me of course) - so that I (and my household) may live.

I owe Him my life (in every sense of the word.)

He speaks truth, the Father (who loves His Son) drew me to Him and said to listen to Him.

I obey the Father by listening to His Son.

Is the 'small still voice' within you the dwelling place of God today?

"Small and still" is a description of a sound.

God does dwell within the person speaking though - that person is His Son, His Chosen One (Messiah - Chosen One of JAH).

Did the 'small still voice' within you tell you the Father is in Him, and he is in the Father?

The Father is indeed in Him and He is in the Father.

Christ is also in us (whom he chooses) and we are in Him. That does not mean that we and Christ are the same person.

On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. John 14:20

See also John 15:4, 6:56; 14:21-23

Peace again.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Since it seems okay to respond to your summary, I thought I might do so for the couple questions remaining:

[Replying to William in post #348]

The observer would also note that Tammy continues to rely on the Bible as a source of support for her position, even while maintaining that the Bible is not inerrant. She quotes John 14:21 as a promise from Christ. She assumes that this passage is reliable. She does not explain why this passage is reliable while other passages might not be. The observer might see this as selective reliance.

I know that promise is true because He fulfilled it (and the promise at verse 23) with me. Not just me of course.

The observer would note that Tammy does not answer Jack's most pointed question about the knocking sound. She ignores it entirely. This may be wise, as engaging with ridicule rarely produces clarity. But the observer might also note that her silence on that point leaves Jack's criticism unanswered.

I just hadn't gotten that far yet.

I'm not sure why one would state that Christ can wake a person up in various ways, but then take issue with one of those ways.

Regardless, if anyone is interested, it is written about here: Rev 3:20


Peace again.

[JehovahsWitness]

... if the testimonies are in direct contradiction to what is written in the bible, both the bible and those said testimonies can be set aside ...

Would that not result in truth being "set aside" because it contradicts what is false? Or are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to identify what is true without direct supernatural contact with the spirit world (in the sense of hearing voices or a spirit communicating through a human such as a 14 year old child)?

You have made statements with are in direct contradiction with the testimonies of the Prophets, Moses and the eyewitness companions of Christ.

So, according to your statement, analysis of your testimonies is futile, we have but to reject both your (contradictory) statement AND the statements of Moses and the inspired Prophets that Jesus in the flesh quoted... and wait for a spirit to contact us ? Correct?


JW



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Should we believe testimonies that contradict or undermine those of Moses, the biblical Prophets and the eyewitness testimonies of the Apostles of Christ?
viewtopic.php?p=1187546#p1187546

Should all encounters with spirits claiming to be Christ be BELIEVED?
viewtopic.php?p=1187526#p1187526

Did Jesus advise awaiting voices from the spirit realm to identify if a testimony is from God or not?
viewtopic.php?p=1187607#p1187607

[JehovahsWitness]

You have made statements with are in direct contradiction with the testimonies of the Prophets, Moses and the eyewitness companions of Christ. --> For verbatim PROOF (copy paste quotations) of OneJack's testimonies that contradict those of the Prophets and Eyewitness companions of Christ in the Flesh CLICK HERE

How can I share with others what God asked us to do if I will not use my own words? Who among God's messengers did not use his personal words in bringing God's messages to the people?

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Should we believe testimonies that contradict or undermine those of Moses, the biblical Prophets and the eyewitness testimonies of the Apostles of Christ?
viewtopic.php?p=1187546#p1187546

Should all encounters with spirits claiming to be Christ be BELIEVED?
viewtopic.php?p=1187526#p1187526

How did Jesus read the testimony of the Prophet Isaiah if all scripture had been "lost"?
viewtopic.php?p=1187547#p1187547

[JehovahsWitness]

Should all encounters with spirits claiming to be Christ be BELIEVED?
viewtopic.php?p=1187526#p1187526

If the one who has the encounter/s with God insists that he must be believed in with what he espouses, then he is not worthy to be the messenger of the Lord God. But if he only testifies to the Lord Jesus Christ alone and calls on all to put their trust and belief only in Him (Jesus), he is a true messenger of the Lord Jesus.

What if a person is driving on a Boulevard and a SPIRIT directly speaks to them or a child or another human starts speaking the words communicated to him from the SPIRIT world , should we believe the SPIRIT is Jesus because he says "I am Jesus" or "I am Almighty God speaking to you"? In other words... should all SPIRITS be BELIEVED if they say "I am God"?

"When he [THE DEVIL#] speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie" - JESUS CHRIST

#The Devil is an unseens spirit that can communicate (and even speak through) humans

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How does Satan manipulate innocent people into believing they are having supernatural encounters with Jesus Christ
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[JehovahsWitness]

if the testimonies are in direct contradiction to what is written in the bible, both the bible and those said testimonies can be set aside and come right away to the Lord Jesus for the truth, call on Him, and listen to and follow Him when He responds.

JESUS CHRIST consistently directed people back to the written Scriptures as the standard by which teachings, traditions, claims, and testimonies were to be evaluated. At no time is he recorded as advising that when in doubt testimonies (both good and bad) should be "set aside" awaiting a supernatural direction from the spirit world. On the contrary he constantly held the already existing written scripture as the authority. Here are some verbatim examples ...

• * In disputes with religious leaders, Jesus repeatedly appealed to Scripture with phrases like:
  
  * “Have you not read…?” (e.g. Matthew 12:3, 12:5; 19:4; 21:16; 22:31)
  
  * “It is written…” (Matthew 4:4, 4:7, 4:10)
  
  * Jesus taught that Scripture could not be broken:
  
  * “The Scripture cannot be broken.” (John 10:35)
  
  * In the temptation narrative, every satanic claim or suggestion was answered by Christ with written Scripture:
  
  * “It is written…” (Matthew 4:1–11)
  
  * After His resurrection, Jesus corrected misunderstanding by appealing to the Scriptures:
  
  * “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!” (Luke 24:25)
  * He then explained “in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.” (Luke 24:27)
  
  * Jesus rebuked error by saying:
  
  * “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29)
  
  * In CHRIST'S ILLUSTRATION of the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham says:
  
  * “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.” (Luke 16:29)

Also notable in its absence, is any response were Jesus undermined confidence in already existing written scripture by pointing out that his audience had NOT personally witnessed Moses or the Prophets nor had they had direct verbal communication with the spirit world

You've not witnessed Moses, nor have you heard anything yet from God.

On the contrary, taken together, the testimony of the eyewitness Apostles of Christ in the flesh presents this principle: When teachings, traditions, testimonies, or spiritual claims conflicted with the bible*, Christ and the apostolic witness directed people back to Scripture as the governing standard of truth.

*NOTE The term "the bible" is the relatively modern term that refers to the collection of "scripture"

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viewtopic.php?p=1187546#p1187546

Was the Hebrew bible "lost" when Jesus was on earth in the flesh?
viewtopic.php?p=1187547#p1187547

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #355]

There were a couple of things I want to run by you.

Do you think that anyone who doesn't hear an actual voice in their mind which identifies itself as Christ, and experiencing The Christ in the way you claim to, are not true followers of Christ?

When you say to another "this is not the Christ I hear" when they witness their own way of communing with The Christ Voice, are you saying that they are somehow wrong and deceived or are you saying something else?