What happens to us when we die?

[placebofactor]

The Bible teaches that we mortals consist of a body, a soul, and a spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:23, “Your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless.”
Hebrews 4:12, For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,” = man’s flesh.

What happens to the physical body at death?
Ecclesiastes 12:7, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was…”
Genesis 3:19, “For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

What Happens to the Spirit at Death?
Ecclesiastes 12:7, “The spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Luke 23:46, Jesus said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.”
James 2:26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead.”

What happens to the soul at death?
Revelation 6:9, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain.”
Genesis 35:18, “And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing (for she died).”
Matthew 10:28, “Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

And what distinguishes the soul from the spirit?
The soul and the spirit are distinguished in Scripture as two different aspects of our immaterial nature, closely connected yet serving different functions. The distinction is subtle, but the Bible gives enough clarity to outline their roles. It is our self, our mind, emotions, and will, while the spirit is the part of us that is God-aware and capable of communion with Him. This distinction appears repeatedly.

The soul refers to your individual life and identity. It expresses emotion, desire, personality, and decision-making. It’s the seat of your mind, will, and emotions. It experiences sorrow, joy, despair, longing, and hope. Yet at times, in certain contexts, it will refer to the whole person.

What is the Spirit? It’s the God-conscious part of a person. It’s the faculty that enables worship, intuition, and spiritual understanding. It is the part of us that can be born again and made alive by the Holy Spirit, and it’s where God’s Holy Spirit bears witness with your spirit, Romans 8:16.

Some teach that death is a state of nonexistence, a state of complete unconsciousness, and that the dead cannot do anything, cannot feel anything, and no longer have any thoughts.

Your thoughts.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #25]

Peace again,

As to your biblical quotes, everything has been responded to in previous discussions:

Previous discussions on 'hell':

viewtopic.php?p=1179297#p1179297
viewtopic.php?p=1028756#p1028756
viewtopic.php?p=970644#p970644
viewtopic.php?p=1019280#p1019280

Yes - I am aware of that tammy. I don't know why you point that out. Perhaps you misunderstood me?

I am just responding to the verses you brought up (or at least showing previous discussions on the topic.) No ulterior motive.

Also, I note that you are silent on other aspects of my post - perhaps this is because you agree with me? If not, why not?

Silence from me is not agreement (just fyi.) But I am not sure what aspects you are referring to that you might like me to comment upon?

Peace again.

[William]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #25]

Peace again,

As to your biblical quotes, everything has been responded to in previous discussions:

Previous discussions on 'hell':

viewtopic.php?p=1179297#p1179297
viewtopic.php?p=1028756#p1028756
viewtopic.php?p=970644#p970644
viewtopic.php?p=1019280#p1019280

Yes - I am aware of that tammy. I don't know why you point that out. Perhaps you misunderstood me?

I am just responding to the verses you brought up (or at least showing previous discussions on the topic.) No ulterior motive.

Also, I note that you are silent on other aspects of my post - perhaps this is because you agree with me? If not, why not?

Silence from me is not agreement (just fyi.)

Is your silence disagreement then?

But I am not sure what aspects you are referring to that you might like me to comment upon?

You tend to remain fairly silent on things which may challenge your own understanding of what The Christ has taught you - you are free to do so of course. If you do not think our differences are important re that, I think it can be agreed that those differences are not important re our individual listening to The Voice of Christ.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #25]

Peace again,

As to your biblical quotes, everything has been responded to in previous discussions:

Previous discussions on 'hell':

viewtopic.php?p=1179297#p1179297
viewtopic.php?p=1028756#p1028756
viewtopic.php?p=970644#p970644
viewtopic.php?p=1019280#p1019280

Yes - I am aware of that tammy. I don't know why you point that out. Perhaps you misunderstood me?

I am just responding to the verses you brought up (or at least showing previous discussions on the topic.) No ulterior motive.

Also, I note that you are silent on other aspects of my post - perhaps this is because you agree with me? If not, why not?

Silence from me is not agreement (just fyi.)

Is your silence disagreement then?

Sometimes.

But if you want a response to something specific, please point it out.

But I am not sure what aspects you are referring to that you might like me to comment upon?

You tend to remain fairly silent on things which may challenge your own understanding of what The Christ has taught you - you are free to do so of course. If you do not think our differences are important re that, I think it can be agreed that those differences are not important re our individual listening to The Voice of Christ.

Again, I do not know what aspect from your post that you were referring to.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #33]

I do not know what aspect from your post that you were referring to.

How about these aspects tammy.

Understandably one might surmise that suffering eternally (being separate from The Father) is a consequence of that sin and one such as yourself can argue that this is not a sign of LOVE, therefore since GOD is Love, then causing eternal suffering is not from a God of Love.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?

In the studies of witnesses who have reported their testimony re their near death experiences, there are those who do report experiencing hellish environments (not necessarily burning in flames) but hellish nonetheless - and some have even called out for help and report J as coming to them and taking them out of that hellish environment.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?
What do you make of these reports?

I think they show us that there may well have been tampering occurring in the scripture indicating that religion has used the subject for gain (as a stumbling device for unholy gain earthside) - or perhaps just as a means of scaring folk into being better behaved?

Whatever the case might be, the reports of these NDE witnesses tell a different story. They do not attribute GOD as having judged them to these hellish environments. What they say is that it was there own selves which created these environments to experience and they accept the responsibility of that.

Has Christ told you this is what goes on? If not, then this doesn't mean that this is NOT what goes on. You are - by your own witness - simply a slave and a slave is not privy to everything the Master knows and could tell.

Do you agree with me? If not, why not?

You obviously cannot bear the thought that God is said to be the one casting folk into these hellish environments because this is "not a loving act" but God does indeed allow such to happen and there is no getting around that, and nor should one argue that allowing such is NOT a loving act.

Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

Can you admit that The Voice of Christ will not divulge to anyone more than they are able to bear and that is the lot of a slave or a sheep - the deeper things to which they cannot bear to hear, (or are unable to understand and acknowledge) will not be heard by them, even if such are told to others - to those who have a relationship with The Christ which is more likened to Friendship and who can handle what was once hidden and is then revealed to them.

Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

Hiding things is not an act of lying on The Christs part.

Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #24]

Didn't the one you claim as your lord tell you not to be afraid, that you have nothing to fear?

You evaded answering my specific question about the Judgment Day. My issue is about the tragic and appalling occurrence of the Judgment Day, but your question is about fear in general aspects of life, where the Lord Jesus taught us this particular advice, saying,

“Remember, when I am by your side, you have nothing to fear, nothing to worry about, because I will save you from any calamity if you trust in Me and regard Me as your salvation and eternal life. As your Lord, whom you alone will worship and none other, I am the one true God existing in heaven, earth, or the universe. I created all things, I gave you life. Where will you go? If not to Me, you have nowhere else to go.”

Hell - Hades - is cast into the lake of fire and destroyed.

It does not become a planet.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hadeswere thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is your opinion on biblical passages [that you perpetually portray as absolute truth in your life]; it’s high time that we should hold all things up to the Living Christ, the Almighty God. Also, you'd better think a million times, Tammy, that it’s a great sin to hold all things up to someone who is not God, to whom you set your hope on fully well - the ‘small still voice’ within you, whom you claim as Christ but not God.

Anyway, we will all witness these tragic and appalling occurrences on Judgment Day. There will only be two planets that will come to exist after the Judgment Day - the Planet of Paradise for the saved souls, and the Planet of Hell for the unsaved souls.

Just fyi: an IMAGE of something is not the thing itself. Christ is the living IMAGE of God. Not God, Himself.

See how out of order you are in this discussion about the Judgment Day that I brought up. On the day of Judgment, all of creation will see the real image and hear the real voice of God, which at this time is still unknown to all of us. Anyone who sees the real image and hears the real voice of God will surely die, as you responded to in my post. But for the information of all, Christ is the Almighty God, who is Immanuel, or Jesus. The issue here is that all will die again when all will see the real image and hear the real voice of God on Judgment Day.

NO, that is love via man and religion's way.

No one lives and suffers eternally in 'hell'. There is no need for such a thing. Such ones are simply destroyed, gone forever. Not given life so that they can live in agony for all eternity. Religion teaches that lie. Religion uses the fear from that false doctrine - that terrible lie about God and His Son - to imprison people (or to try and turn people away from Christ and God altogether.)

Okay, Tammy, where did you hear or learn this notion? Have you heard this from the Almighty God?

You are suggesting (again) that Christ lied to and misled John. He did not. Nor did He say, "all of this depends on 'caveat a, b, or c.' "

How could the bible be Christ in this regard? You're taking your feed from the bible alone, and then infusing your opinion thereat to formulate your own doctrine and notion.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #33]

I do not know what aspect from your post that you were referring to.

How about these aspects tammy.

Understandably one might surmise that suffering eternally (being separate from The Father) is a consequence of that sin and one such as yourself can argue that this is not a sign of LOVE, therefore since GOD is Love, then causing eternal suffering is not from a God of Love.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?

Disagree.

Suffering natural consequences of one's own actions is simply cause and effect, reaping what you sow, etc. If I deliberately don't wear non-slip shoes in a work environment that requires non-slip shoes - and I fall - I am not being punished by God. This is just cause and effect.

However, eternal suffering (regardless of how you want to define it) requires that you first be given eternal life. It requires that you have access to and eat from the Tree of Life (Christ.) Not everyone is given that access.

In the studies of witnesses who have reported their testimony re their near death experiences, there are those who do report experiencing hellish environments (not necessarily burning in flames) but hellish nonetheless - and some have even called out for help and report J as coming to them and taking them out of that hellish environment.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?
What do you make of these reports?

I don't really make anything of these reports. I am not them, I did not experience it, and if I had, I would ask my Lord about it later, and what it meant. Was it a dream or vision from Him (and if so, I would wait to hear from Him what it meant instead of coming to my own conclusion), or was it just something that my mind concocted on its own?

I would not come to my own conclusion. I would wait for Him.

But I have no reason to believe they descended to 'hell', and many reasons to reject it. People are conscious of nothing in the world of the dead - because they are DEAD, they are not alive and experiencing anything. Also, these people you refer to were not dead, right? NDE is near death, but not actual death. So why would they have gone to the world of the dead (Hades/Hell)?


Regardless, you said that they claim they created these environments that they claimed to have experienced. So they admit themselves that it came from their own mind:

Whatever the case might be, the reports of these NDE witnesses tell a different story. They do not attribute GOD as having judged them to these hellish environments. What they say is that it was there own selves which created these environments to experience and they accept the responsibility of that.

They were not in Hades (the world of the dead), which is a real place.

I think they show us that there may well have been tampering occurring in the scripture indicating that religion has used the subject for gain (as a stumbling device for unholy gain earthside) - or perhaps just as a means of scaring folk into being better behaved?

Scripture does not teach eternal suffering in hell.

Religion teaches that - perhaps to scare folk into being better behaved, but certainly to instill fear into people. Fear they use to keep people from coming to Christ and God (either because they are too afraid to leave their religion and instead come to the Truth/Christ - or - by turning them away from God altogether, just so that they can get away from the shame and fear and burden that religion creates in them, and of course because it makes no sense to claim that eternal suffering in hell is an act of love.)

So the tampering is in twisting scripture and verses to suit a theology (as men and religion do), and also in some translation (such as translating 3 different words - Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus - into the one word 'hell'.)

Has Christ told you this is what goes on? If not, then this doesn't mean that this is NOT what goes on. You are - by your own witness - simply a slave and a slave is not privy to everything the Master knows and could tell.

A slave is privy to anything the Master chooses to tell them. He has promised to lead us into all truth.

You obviously cannot bear the thought that God is said to be the one casting folk into these hellish environments because this is "not a loving act" but God does indeed allow such to happen and there is no getting around that, and nor should one argue that allowing such is NOT a loving act.

Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

It has nothing to do with 'bearing the thought' of "God casting folk into these hellish environments.' It is just not what Christ teaches about Hades, the world of the dead, the resurrection (first and second).

Can you admit that The Voice of Christ will not divulge to anyone more than they are able to bear and that is the lot of a slave or a sheep - the deeper things to which they cannot bear to hear, (or are unable to understand and acknowledge) will not be heard by them, even if such are told to others - to those who have a relationship with The Christ which is more likened to Friendship and who can handle what was once hidden and is then revealed to them.

Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

Christ (a person who has a voice) does not give people more than they can bear - slave, sheep, friend. The 12 apostles were called friends by Christ - but they still called themselves slaves/servants (by CHOICE, out of LOVE) - chose to take their freedom and serve Him and His Father, put His and His Father's will FIRST. Even Christ took the form of a slave, putting His Father's will FIRST - again out of LOVE - and He is the Son of God. It is about serving - it is about love.

But Christ does promise to lead His sheep into all truth.

Sometimes people use His words about 'having more to say that you cannot yet bear' as an excuse/justification for claiming anything they want. Gotta test those inspired expressions.

Hiding things is not an act of lying on The Christs part.

Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

I don't know about hiding. But I agree that 'not revealing' something just yet is not an act of lying, especially if a person cannot yet bear it.

But the so-called 'hidden thing' - once revealed - cannot contradict the truth that Christ already revealed.


Sometimes those 'deeper things' are just a lie, a deception, something used to mislead people.

Peace again.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #24]

Didn't the one you claim as your lord tell you not to be afraid, that you have nothing to fear?

You evaded answering my specific question about the Judgment Day. My issue is about the tragic and appalling occurrence of the Judgment Day, but your question is about fear in general aspects of life, where the Lord Jesus taught us this particular advice, saying,

“Remember, when I am by your side, you have nothing to fear, nothing to worry about, because I will save you from any calamity if you trust in Me and regard Me as your salvation and eternal life. As your Lord, whom you alone will worship and none other, I am the one true God existing in heaven, earth, or the universe. I created all things, I gave you life. Where will you go? If not to Me, you have nowhere else to go.”

I did not evade your question at all. I pointed out what you claim was said to you: "nothing to fear; any calamity"

The point is that you now seem to be stating two conflicting things, and claiming they both came from the same spirit.

NO, that is love via man and religion's way.

No one lives and suffers eternally in 'hell'. There is no need for such a thing. Such ones are simply destroyed, gone forever. Not given life so that they can live in agony for all eternity. Religion teaches that lie. Religion uses the fear from that false doctrine - that terrible lie about God and His Son - to imprison people (or to try and turn people away from Christ and God altogether.)

Okay, Tammy, where did you hear or learn this notion? Have you heard this from the Almighty God?

This is based upon what I have learned from the Son of God (and from love - which God IS).

But you are not listening to the Son of God. You state this outright.

So we are not listening to the same spirit.

You are suggesting (again) that Christ lied to and misled John. He did not. Nor did He say, "all of this depends on 'caveat a, b, or c.' "

How could the bible be Christ in this regard? You're taking your feed from the bible alone, and then infusing your opinion thereat to formulate your own doctrine and notion.

This response makes no sense.

Did Christ show John that there would be two planets left - 'planet hell' (sounds like a movie) and 'planet paradise'?
Did Christ tell John that the things He showed him in that revelation were dependent upon a caveat? If yes, what is the caveat that you are claiming these things depended upon?


Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #36]

Thank you for your responses tammy.

My observations from these are as follows;

You claim two things simultaneously.

First, you claim to be a slave of Christ. A slave does not test the master's commands. A slave does not verify whether the master's voice is really the master. A slave obeys immediately and completely. The master's authority is absolute and unquestioned.

Second, you claim to test the voice against Scripture and against love. You admit the possibility that what you hear could be from your own mind or from another spirit. You withhold immediate obedience until you have verified.

These two positions are incompatible. A slave does not test. A slave obeys. If you test, you are not functioning as a slave. If you must verify, you do not fully trust the voice as the master's voice.

If you truly believe you hear Christ and that Christ is your Master, why do you not simply receive and obey? Why the hesitation? Why the safeguards? Why the appeals to an external standard?

The most straightforward answer is that you do not actually believe the voice is Christ with the certainty you claim. You hope it is Christ. You suspect it might be Christ. You want it to be Christ. But you are not sure. And your lack of certainty is demonstrated by your elaborate testing system.

What a Real Slave Would Do
A real slave who heard the master's voice would not say, "Let me check this against a book to see if my master is telling me the truth." A real slave would not say, "Let me see if this command is loving enough to have come from my master." A real slave would act. Immediate. Unquestioning. Total.

You do not do this. You hesitate. You verify. You test. This is not the posture of a slave. It is the posture of a cautious person who does not want to be deceived and who retains the final authority to decide what is and is not from Christ.

The Central Contradiction
You claim to be a slave. Yet you act like a sovereign who judges the voice against your own standards. You claim to hear Christ directly. You refuse to provide any verbatim example of what He has spoken to you. You claim the voice leads you into all truth. You remain disinterested in evidence that challenges your beliefs.

The title of slave is a claim. The behavior is not consistent with that claim.

If you truly are a slave of Christ, why do you test His voice? Why do you not simply receive and obey? Who is the master in this relationship, you or the voice? And if you must test the voice against Scripture, does that not mean Scripture has authority over the voice, which would mean Scripture has authority over you, making you a slave to Scripture rather than to the voice you claim is Christ?

_________________________

[tam]

[Replying to William in post #38]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #36]

Thank you for your responses tammy.

Sure.

Though I will note that the only 'aspect' from your post that you seem interested in discussing is me (how I am failing and how I cannot be hearing, etc.) I suspect it might be different if I could validate your belief - but I cannot.

My observations from these are as follows;

You claim two things simultaneously.

First, you claim to be a slave of Christ. A slave does not test the master's commands. A slave does not verify whether the master's voice is really the master. A slave obeys immediately and completely. The master's authority is absolute and unquestioned.

Second, you claim to test the voice against Scripture and against love. You admit the possibility that what you hear could be from your own mind or from another spirit. You withhold immediate obedience until you have verified.

These two positions are incompatible. A slave does not test. A slave obeys. If you test, you are not functioning as a slave. If you must verify, you do not fully trust the voice as the master's voice.

A slave does test the inspired expression if her Master told her to do so. Something He will have done out of love.

**

There are liars in the world. There are lying spirits. There are false prophets and false christs. We can lie to ourselves for that matter. We can misunderstand.

My Lord has taught me to hold all things up to Him. Test all things against Him. He is the Truth, the Light, the Word of God, and the One to whom God has said for us to listen. Love is also a 'safeguard' because a) God is love and nothing that comes from God will be against love, and b) love is the law that is written upon the hearts of the people in the new covenant, and c) love covers over a multitude of sins.

The most straightforward answer is that you do not actually believe the voice is Christ with the certainty you claim. You hope it is Christ. You suspect it might be Christ. You want it to be Christ. But you are not sure. And your lack of certainty is demonstrated by your elaborate testing system.

No, I know it is my Lord (Christ Jaheshua) who speaks to me. I do not doubt that at all. Others certainly try and make me doubt - but I know He has me, that I am one of His sheep - even if undeserving.

What a Real Slave Would Do

This would be between me and my Master, would it not?

You refuse to provide any verbatim example of what He has spoken to you.

And this is a lie William. Whether you know it or if you truly cannot see it.

You and I have had conversations where I have shared what my Lord said to me on that particular matter. It has not changed anything in discussions between us.

You have also asked me to read/comment upon things that you post - but I have to test those William. If what you claim does not hold up to the Light, to Christ, the Truth - I cannot accept it. If you want me to comment, then I am going to point to Christ and His words. Sometimes it seems like you feel hurt by this, and that is not my intention, but I cannot lie to you (or to anyone reading.) Where would the love be from me to you (or to the reader or for my Lord) in lying or placating or 'going along to get along'?

You claim the voice leads you into all truth. You remain disinterested in evidence that challenges your beliefs.

I do not accept claims that contradict Christ.

I may remain non-committal or disinterested in claims that I have not heard about from Him.

And if you must test the voice against Scripture, does that not mean Scripture has authority over the voice, which would mean Scripture has authority over you, making you a slave to Scripture rather than to the voice you claim is Christ?

William, I already said that I do not first test 'against scripture' on the other thread.

Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #39]

viewtopic.php?p=1187431#p1187431