Exodus 3, who was in the burning bush?

[placebofactor]

Exodus 3:2, King James Bible, “The angel (messenger) of the LORD appeared to him (Moses) in a flame of fire from within the bush.”

Question, “Did the angel of the Lord appear to Moses as he was, or AS a flame of fire?” Answer: He appeared “in a flame of fire,” not “as a flame of fire.” He is present within the flame; the flame is the environment of the appearance, not the angel’s form.

Question: Is the LORD (YHWH) in verse 4 the “angel of the LORD” in verse 2? And in Verse 4, “When the LORD (YHWH) saw that he turned aside to look, God (Elohim) called to him from the midst of the bush.”
Question: Is the LORD and God in verse 4 the same person as the angel of the LORD in verse 2?

The text begins with “the angel of the LORD appeared…”, but when the voice speaks, it is simply “God” and “the LORD.” There was no change of scene, no new character introduced, no explanation. The same presence in the bush is now called “YHWH” and “Elohim.”

I understand that the God and LORD of verse 4 are the same person as the angel of the LORD in verse 2. And yes, each title carries a different theological emphasis.

As the Angel of the LORD, this is God manifested.
As the LORD, “YHWH,” this is his covenant identity, and,
As God, “Elohim,” it speaks of his authority and power. The narrative uses all three to give a fuller picture of who is speaking from the bush.

As for the name “I Am” in verse 14, it sums it all up. “I Am” means God will be what he will be." He will be the angel of the LORD delivering a message. As the LORD, he is speaking of his identity, faithfulness, and that he is and will be. And as God, he is the Creator, Sovereign, and Judge?

As the “I Am,” it sums up all three titles? “I Am” (Ehyeh) in Exodus 3:14 expresses God’s freedom, constancy, and self-determining nature. “He will be what he will be.” He will be whatever the situation requires; he will manifest Himself however He chooses because he is not and will not be defined by man.

Strictly limiting ourselves to what the Bible teaches, what do we know? John 1:18, “No man hath seen God (the Father) at any time.”
John 5:37, “Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” These two verses refer to the Father, as the context makes clear.

So, the Bible teaches that the Father has never been seen, and his voice never heard. So what is the logical conclusion we can draw? Who appeared and spoke to Moses in the bush? And who else holds all the titles of LORD, God, angel of the LORD, and the I Am? The only other divine person the scriptures identify as God, as LORD, as the angel of the LORD, and the I Am, is the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to OneJack in post #40]

I know, @OneJack, that your "Lord," who you say talked directly to you, is not the same person who is my Lord Jesus Christ, because he discounted and rejected the Bible as God's inspired Word through which he edifies and guides his people. Who is your "Lord," really?

I don't think that you can deny the experiences of millions of true believers that confirm their understanding that the Bible has God's guiding principles for our changing lives and that the Holy Spirit uses it to change us from the Father through Jesus as our one, all-powerful God.

When your "Lord" replaced the Bible's mysterious, Triune God with your one-person God, he elevated his reason over the clear evidence in the Bible, thus replacing God's reasoning with his own. And he lured you into that trap too. I find it very sad.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #40]

I know, @OneJack, that your "Lord," who you say talked directly to you, is not the same person who is my Lord Jesus Christ, because he discountded and rejected the Bible as God's inspired Word through which he edifies and guides his people. Who is your "Lord," really?

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty God; He is the one that I'm telling you about, Bruce. The Lord said to us, to wit:

All of you who are listening, listen carefully! I am your Lord God. Who are you afraid of? I am the Almighty. Who are you intimidated by? Remember, when I am by your side, you have nothing to fear, nothing to worry about, because I will save you from any calamity if you trust in Me and regard Me as your salvation and eternal life. As your Lord, whom you alone will worship and none other, I am the one true God existing in heaven, earth, or the universe. I created all things, I gave you life. Where will you go? If not to Me, you have nowhere else to go.

"Remember, eternal life and your salvation are in My hands. If you want to be saved, come and draw near to Me. If you want eternal life, come and call upon Me. Trust in Me, because if you don't, you will have no salvation and no eternal life. You will have nowhere to go but to calamity and suffering. But if you draw near to Me, you will attain nothing but peace – peace if you accept it, if you trust in Me, if you believe in Me with all your heart and all your love. Love Me with all your heart, and worship none other but Me, the one and only Lord.

I don't think that you can deny the experiences of millions of true believers that confirm their understanding that the Bible has God's guiding principles for our changing lives and that the Holy Spirit uses it to change us from the Father through Jesus as our one, all-powerful God.

They are followers of the bible - biblical believers and followers - and they elevate the bible to the place of God in their lives. You can count on your fingers the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ if you come to, call on the Lord, and wait for Him to respond, Bruce.

When your "Lord" replaced the Bible's mysterious, Triune God with your one-person God, he elevated his reason over the clear evidence in the Bible, thus replacing God's reasoning with his own. And he lured you into that trap too. I find it very sad.

I posted what the LORD JESUS taught us about Himself, see if He is teaching us a Triune God, a misconception that you took unto yourself to live with until the end.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to OneJack in post #42]

@OneJack, where did you get the idea that believers "elevate the bible to the place of God in their lives"? In my 83 years, I have known 1,000s of Christians, who say that the Lord is their God and that he uses the Bible, which he has inspired, to change their lives for the better. It's his means to bless his people, not God himself. That's what they believe and have experienced, not what you accuse them of. The God-inspired Apostle Paul wrote to young Pastor Timothy:

2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 
2Ti 3:17  that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. 
2Ti 4:1  I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 
2Ti 4:2  preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to OneJack in post #42]

Your "Lord Jesus" is someone other than the real Lord Jesus if he denies that the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are all one God, as John tells us in his gospel. You have been bamboozled, @OneJack. You will have to admit that at the final judgment if you don't beforehand. Digest the following please:

First, Jesus makes seven "I am" claims in the Gospel of John as metaphors comparing his divine nature with that same God's spiritual reality:

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Jhn_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Jhn_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Jhn_11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Jhn_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

NOTE: When Jesus says, "I am (ego eimi) the good Shepherd," he claims that he is David's divine Shepherd (Psalm 23:1).

Jhn_15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Jhn_15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

Second, now, what connects Jesus' claims with Exodus 3:14? In the Greek Old Testament, which is the Septuagint, God's words of "I AM" as his name are "ego eimi." The word "eimi" would be sufficient to be translated "I am," but God adds the word "ego," which is properly translated "I," for emphasis "I, I AM."

In New Testament Greek, Jesus does exactly the same thing by saying seven times, "ego eimi" to claim deity and divine actions and qualities. He uses the exact same words as the God of the burning bush does to name himself, as you rightly point out.

Third, therefore, Jesus claims to be that one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit seven times in the Gospel of John, thus revealing God to us.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #42]

Your "Lord Jesus" is someone other than the real Lord Jesus if he denies that the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are all one God, as John tells us in his gospel. You have been bamboozled, @OneJack. You will have to admit that at the final judgment if you don't beforehand. Digest the following please:

First, Jesus makes seven "I am" claims in the Gospel of John as metaphors comparing his divine nature with that same God's spiritual reality:

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Jhn_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Jhn_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Jhn_11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Jhn_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

NOTE: When Jesus says, "I am (ego eimi) the good Shepherd," he claims that he is David's divine Shepherd (Psalm 23:1).

Jhn_15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Jhn_15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

Second, now, what connects Jesus' claims with Exodus 3:14? In the Greek Old Testament, which is the Septuagint, God's words of "I AM" as his name are "ego eimi." The word "eimi" would be sufficient to be translated "I am," but God adds the word "ego," which is properly translated "I," for emphasis "I, I AM."

In New Testament Greek, Jesus does exactly the same thing by saying seven times, "ego eimi" to claim deity and divine actions and qualities. He uses the exact same words as the God of the burning bush does to name himself, as you rightly point out.

Third, therefore, Jesus claims to be that one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit seven times in the Gospel of John, thus revealing God to us.

See John 14:10-11, what did the Son say in those two verses?

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to OneJack in post #45]

Why don't you respond to all of my verses, @OneJack? Do you secretly wrestle with them and are beginning to agree with them?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #45]

Why don't you respond to all of my verses, @OneJack? Do you secretly wrestle with them and are beginning to agree with them?

Those verses are not Jesus, are they? You’re using them to support/warrant your opinion.

[Capbook]

[Replying to OneJack in post #45]

Why don't you respond to all of my verses, @OneJack? Do you secretly wrestle with them and are beginning to agree with them?

Those verses are not Jesus, are they? You’re using them to support/warrant your opinion.

OneJack, you always rely wholly to that untested spirit.
Jesus' defense when He had a face to face encounter with the devil was "it is written," why can't you do that to the spirit you are relying to?"
Just try to do it, if he will confirm he made that defense, then good, but if he deny it you will know then who he is.

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 
Mat 4:5  Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 
Mat 4:6  And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 
Mat 4:7  Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 
Mat 4:8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 
Mat 4:9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 
Mat 4:10  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to OneJack in post #47]

@OneJack, those verses are direct quotes of Jesus' words when he was doing his ministry on earth, written by his closest disciple, who heard Jesus say them. Why do you reject them as Jesus' direct communication?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #47]

@OneJack, those verses are direct quotes of Jesus' words when he was doing his ministry on earth, written by his closest disciple, who heard Jesus say them. Why do you reject them as Jesus' direct communication?

Wake up, Bruce. I said those verses are not the Lord Jesus Christ, per se, are they? They are written words in the bible, so far.