In the spirit world did------?

[placebofactor]

In the spirit world, we're speaking of spiritual creatures like angels, etc. Did any of them ever worship the Father or the Son before or after the incarnation? I will start you off with the following verse to prove me wrong.

Try to be good teachers and stay within the context of these verses. I am quoting from the King James. Use any bible you want, but the rules will apply evenly.

Isaiah 6:1-3, "I (Isaiah) saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple, above it (the throne) stood the seraphims; each one had six wings; and two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he did fly."

Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, and the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee."

Psalms 148:2, "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts." With verse 5, "Let him praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created."

In Revelation 4:8-11, you can read the verses for yourself and respond.

[placebofactor]

In the spirit world, we're speaking of spiritual creatures like angels, etc. Did any of them ever worship the Father or the Son before or after the incarnation? I will start you off with the following verse to prove me wrong.

Try to be good teachers and stay within the context of these verses. I am quoting from the King James. Use any bible you want, but the rules will apply evenly.

Isaiah 6:1-3, "I (Isaiah) saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple, above it (the throne) stood the seraphims; each one had six wings; and two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he did fly."

Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, and the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee."

Psalms 148:2, "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts." With verse 5, "Let him praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created."

In Revelation 4:8-11, you can read the verses for yourself and respond.

Let's begin with Isaiah 6:1. Isaiah wrote, "I saw also the Lord (Adonay) sitting upon a throne," In this verse, the watchtower has decided to change (Adonay or Lord) to Jehovah. The NIV has left it "Lord." Now, when a Jehovah's Witness speaks of Jehovah, they are speaking of the Father and not the Son of God. But wait one moment. If no man has ever seen the Father, then Isaiah must have seen the Son of God sitting upon his throne, high and lifted up." He must have seen him in all his glory before his incarnation. Your thoughts.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #2]

You said, "Did any of them ever worship the Father or the Son before or after the incarnation?" Can you explain to me what you mean by this question? I don't understand your meaning. What are you getting at, @placebofactor?

[1213]

Let's begin with Isaiah 6:1. Isaiah wrote, "I saw also the Lord (Adonay) sitting upon a throne," In this verse, the watchtower has decided to change (Adonay or Lord) to Jehovah. ...

I can agree that the word is Adonay. And I believe it is possible Jesus sat on the throne. But, is there any good reason to think it makes him the God?

[placebofactor]

Let's begin with Isaiah 6:1. Isaiah wrote, "I saw also the Lord (Adonay) sitting upon a throne," In this verse, the watchtower has decided to change (Adonay or Lord) to Jehovah. ...

I can agree that the word is Adonay. And I believe it is possible Jesus sat on the throne. But, is there any good reason to think it makes him the God?

"I love the way you put it, "I think it's possible,"

"YOU think it's possible, but Isaiah the prophet knew who he was; he calls him Jehovah. Or was Isaiah hallucinating? Or was he saying there were two Gods? If he were saying there are two Gods he should have been stoned to death.

Then, who or what do you think it makes Jesus? The Witnesses are the ones who keep changing Jesus titles and names, not Christians. In 1960, they worshipped Jesus. In 1971, they refused to worship him. In 1960 he "created all things. In 1971, He created all (other) things." In 2013 the Watchtower removed the brackets from (other) and made it part of the text, see Revelation 22:

Is he "A god?
The god?
A God?
A little god?
the Almighty God?
The Almighty little god?
A mighty (minor) god?
Is he Jehovah?
Is he YHWH?

Did he create all things, all other things, or all (other) things, or nothing? Did he just stand by after his Father sent him to create and watch as a good son should?

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #5]

Isaiah 6:1, "I saw also the Lord (Jesus) sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple." Now, let’s compare Isaiah 6:1 with John 12:41, “These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Jesus) glory.”
Also with John 17:5, when Jesus said, "Now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was." John is speaking of Jesus preincarnate glory.

Isaiah is describing the vision he had of the Lord Jesus enthroned in heavenly glory, His majesty filling the heavenly temple. In the New Testament, John 12:41 supports this.
John 12:41, “Isaiah said this because he saw His glory and spoke of Him.” The “Him” in context is Jesus. So, the New Testament itself identifies the Lord of Isaiah 6 as the pre-incarnate Christ.

Also in John 17:5, Jesus is speaking of His pre-existent glory
Jesus prayer, “Glorify Me… with the glory I had with You before the world was,” refers to his eternal divine glory shared with the Father before creation.
Isaiah 6 shows the Lord in his heavenly glory. John 12 tells us that Isaiah saw Jesus’ glory, and John 17 shows Jesus claiming He had divine glory before the world existed.
Therefore, the Bible supports Jesus’ preexistence, His divinity, and His identity as Jehovah, all to the glory of His Father in heaven.

[Revelations won]

Post #1
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by placebofactor » Fri Apr 17, 2026 12:26 pm
In the spirit world, we're speaking of spiritual creatures like angels, etc. Did any of them ever worship the Father or the Son before or after the incarnation? I will start you off with the following verse to prove me wrong.

Try to be good teachers and stay within the context of these verses. I am quoting from the King James. Use any bible you want, but the rules will apply evenly.

Isaiah 6:1-3, "I (Isaiah) saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple, above it (the throne) stood the seraphims; each one had six wings; and two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he did fly."

Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, and the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee."

Psalms 148:2, "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts." With verse 5, "Let him praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created."

In Revelation 4:8-11, you can read the verses for yourself and respond.


My responses:

“(Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
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Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.)”


John 3:There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
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Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
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The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


This earth and Heaven we are associated with is but on of the many heavens and earths.

Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.


1 Kings 8:26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.
27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?


`2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!


John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

A careful search and study of the above was given to increase our understandings. We only get the BiG picture line upon line by the holy ghost as we can b e taught “All things” by the second comforter.

[OneJack]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #2]

If no man has ever seen the Father,

Indeed, no one has seen God (Father) till this time.

then Isaiah must have seen the Son of God sitting upon his throne,

Two things: 10 How could Isaiah have seen the Son of God when the latter was not yet in existence during his time? 2) Or, Isaiah may have seen the Son of God through vision, as God allowed it to happen in a preconceived stage.

high and lifted up." He must have seen him in all his glory before his incarnation. Your thoughts.

No doubt, what Isaiah saw, whether the Son of God or not, was, absolutely, the manifestation of God [to him] in speaking with him (Isaiah).

[1213]

Then, who or what do you think it makes Jesus?

Sitter on a throne.

I think God has raised Jesus to the position Jesus has and everything else than God is subjugated under Jesus. Therefore Jesus is the second greatest.

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

...
Is he YHWH?

Did he create all things, all other things, or all (other) things, or nothing? Did he just stand by after his Father sent him to create and watch as a good son should?

Bible tells Jesus is the son of God. And things were created through him. Bible tells also that God is greater than Jesus and there is only one true God.

[placebofactor]

Then, who or what do you think it makes Jesus?

Sitter on a throne.

I think God has raised Jesus to the position Jesus has and everything else than God is subjugated under Jesus. Therefore Jesus is the second greatest.

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

...
Is he YHWH?

Did he create all things, all other things, or all (other) things, or nothing? Did he just stand by after his Father sent him to create and watch as a good son should?

Bible tells Jesus is the son of God. And things were created through him. The Bible tells also that God is greater than Jesus and there is only one true God.

You're wrong on every point you made.
1. Did the Father raise Jesus or did he send him? Isaiah 9;6, "A son was given." He was a gift. Obviously, some people don't like the gift; they want the one who sent the gift.

2. Jesus created ALL THINGS! Not somethings, not most things, but "All things, John 1:3, and if you want to tear that verse out of the Bible, then try Colossians 1:16, or Genesis 1:1, or Hebrews 1:8 when the Father calls his beloved Son "God. "He said to him, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever." OH, wait, isn't Jesus the one Isaiah saw sitting on his throne, then called him Jehovah?

3. Please explain what you mean by "through?' Did the Father's words pass through the Son? Did they go around him, over him, or under him? What do you mean by "through him?" Why would the Father send his Son, then let his words pass THROUGH HIM? That's not what messengers do.

4. See, you had to use the words Jesus used while in the form of a servant. You can't resist it, can you? "The Father is greater." What do you think greater means? Bigger, stronger, longer, wider, WHAT? The word 'Greater has nothing to do with the Father or Son's divine natures. It concerns only those who are receiving the message, not the sender or the one who was sent.

Last word. John 1:10, "He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by him, AND THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT." Nothing changes, does it?