The Christian Rationale for Retaining Belief

[POI]

For debate:

1) Aside from the claims for a Jesus resurrection, what otherwise falsifiable (events/claims) from the Bible must also be demonstrated accurate and correct to retain faith?
2) If any of the above stated/given (events/claims) were to instead be falsified, (to your own personal satisfaction), would you then logically denounce your Christian faith, or, would you instead pivot/adject and remain in faith?
3) Are you willing to have any of these expressed/given (claims/events), from the Bible, challenged?

[POI]

[Replying to OneJack in post #40]

Looks like your asserted "living Jesus" fella might be mistaken, as indications point to the contrary?

Scholarship and archaeology largely conclude the biblical Exodus did not happen, as described due to a lack of evidence in Egyptian records or Sinai archaeology, and a direct contradiction with evidence that early Israelites were indigenous Canaanites. While a smaller, foundational event may exist, the narrative is considered a later construction.

Here is why most historians and archaeologists doubt the literal account: Lack of Archaeological evidence in Sinai: Despite extensive surveys, no evidence exists of huge campsites or a large, sustained population wandering the Sinai wilderness for 40 years. The claim to the sheer number would leave evidence.

Silence in Egyptian Records: No Egyptian documents mention the enslavement of Israelites, the ten plagues, the destruction of Pharaoh’s army, or the escape of a huge population, which would have been a catastrophic event.

Indigenous Origin of Israel: Archaeology shows that early Israelite culture emerged directly from local Canaanite culture in the late Bronze Age, not from a massive influx of outsiders (slaves from Egypt).

Contradictory Geography: During the period of the proposed exodus, Canaan was controlled by the Egyptian Empire. Therefore, the Israelites would have been fleeing from Egypt into land already ruled by Egypt.

Anachronisms and Timing: The Torah, which dictates the story, was written centuries after the supposed events (approx. 600–800 years later), containing later names of places and details that did not exist during the 13th Century BCE

***********************

This is why there is an uptick or influx of believers who argue that the 'Hyksos' or the 'Habiru' may have been the actual 'Israelites'. This is their last "hail Mary", so-to-speak.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #40]

Looks like your asserted "living Jesus" fella might be mistaken, as indications point to the contrary?

Scholarship and archaeology largely conclude the biblical Exodus did not happen, as described due to a lack of evidence in Egyptian records or Sinai archaeology, and a direct contradiction with evidence that early Israelites were indigenous Canaanites. While a smaller, foundational event may exist, the narrative is considered a later construction.

Here is why most historians and archaeologists doubt the literal account: Lack of Archaeological evidence in Sinai: Despite extensive surveys, no evidence exists of huge campsites or a large, sustained population wandering the Sinai wilderness for 40 years. The claim to the sheer number would leave evidence.

Silence in Egyptian Records: No Egyptian documents mention the enslavement of Israelites, the ten plagues, the destruction of Pharaoh’s army, or the escape of a huge population, which would have been a catastrophic event.

Indigenous Origin of Israel: Archaeology shows that early Israelite culture emerged directly from local Canaanite culture in the late Bronze Age, not from a massive influx of outsiders (slaves from Egypt).

Contradictory Geography: During the period of the proposed exodus, Canaan was controlled by the Egyptian Empire. Therefore, the Israelites would have been fleeing from Egypt into land already ruled by Egypt.

Anachronisms and Timing: The Torah, which dictates the story, was written centuries after the supposed events (approx. 600–800 years later), containing later names of places and details that did not exist during the 13th Century BCE

***********************

This is why there is an uptick or influx of believers who argue that the 'Hyksos' or the 'Habiru' may have been the actual 'Israelites'. This is their last "hail Mary", so-to-speak.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only one I know who knows with absolute certainty the history of all things, beginning with their creation, not the scholars and archaeologists today, hence, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only living witness to the truth about the story of the Exodus of the Jews from the Land of Egypt.

The time that has elapsed since the Israelites journeyed out of the land of Egypt during Pharaoh’s time up to this time is long enough for anyone to gather tangible evidence to warrant or disprove the genuineness of the Exodus in the accounts of the Bible. The lack of evidence, this time, in archaeological facts or historical records in Egypt does not absolutely warrant the falsity of Exodus of the Israelites out of the land of Egypt considering that this event was a great shame to Pharaoh, who could make a decree to delete all records about the Israelites and all the things that happened in this Exodus of the Jews out of their land.

If this Exodus of the Jews were a hoax, it would follow that the story of Joseph the dreamer in Egypt were also a hoax, as would the great famine in Egypt.

[POI]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only one I know who knows with absolute certainty the history of all things, beginning with their creation,

Just curious... Since it seems you have access to 'the source of absolute truth', and since you have mentioned 'creation', what is this living Jesus's' stance on how old this planet really is and how long ago were humans created, just for starters, as I would have many more questions to follow?

the Lord Jesus Christ is the only living witness to the truth about the story of the Exodus of the Jews from the Land of Egypt.

Should I just take your word for it, as Jesus does not reveal anything at all to me, even though I attempted communication with him myself for decades, or should I instead follow the evidence, or lack-there-of, to such a large claim -- which would leave behind a plethora of it - (since we're talking about a timespan of roughly 400 years and millions of folks), and has not?

The time that has elapsed since the Israelites journeyed out of the land of Egypt during Pharaoh’s time up to this time is long enough for anyone to gather tangible evidence to warrant or disprove the genuineness of the Exodus in the accounts of the Bible. The lack of evidence, this time, in archaeological facts or historical records in Egypt does not absolutely warrant the falsity of Exodus of the Israelites out of the land of Egypt considering that this event was a great shame to Pharaoh, who could make a decree to delete all records about the Israelites and all the things that happened in this Exodus of the Jews out of their land.

Egyptians were known to try and cover up single individuals' presence and still failed. It would be even more far-fetched to assume that 'the Pharaoh' could have eliminated all traces of evidence to millions of folks spanning hundreds of years of enslavement and also a 4 decades-long journey through the hot and dry desert - (where all evidence would be well preserved). I guess 'the Pharaoh' had many Egyptians comb the entire Sanai desert and pick up all evidence/traces to their existence. Your response is a prime example as to why this topic was created.

[OneJack]

[Replying to POI in post #43]

Just curious... Since it seems you have access to 'the source of absolute truth', and since you have mentioned 'creation', what is this living Jesus's' stance on how old this planet really is and how long ago were humans created, just for starters, as I would have many more questions to follow?

The Lord didn’t tell us the exact age of the universe, but He said it is in terms of billion years [of existence]. About the creation of humans, we didn’t touch this issue during His tutorial lessons with us.

Should I just take your word for it, as Jesus does not reveal anything at all to me, even though I attempted communication with him myself for decades, or should I instead follow the evidence, or lack-there-of, to such a large claim -- which would leave behind a plethora of it - (since we're talking about a timespan of roughly 400 years and millions of folks), and has not?

You don’t have to take my word about the omniscient nature of the Lord Jesus because you can reach out to Him any time you want. The issue of whether the Exodus of the Jews is true or not actually brings no big deal to the faith, per se, of the Christians, though it may be different to the Biblical Christians. Further, the same is not a prerequisite to the salvation of our souls, so what’s the big deal in taking up this issue?

Egyptians were known to try and cover up single individuals' presence and still failed. It would be even more far-fetched to assume that 'the Pharaoh' could have eliminated all traces of evidence to millions of folks spanning hundreds of years of enslavement and also a 4 decades-long journey through the hot and dry desert - (where all evidence would be well preserved). I guess 'the Pharaoh' had many Egyptians comb the entire Sanai desert and pick up all evidence/traces to their existence.

Your response is a prime example as to why this topic was created.

Actually, no one can stop the Lord Jesus from proving Himself to those who come to Him in the right way. It just happens that you can count on your fingers those who find their way in the Lord, across all ages. Focusing on the wrong way to the Lord Jesus is what snatches away the attention of many people, across all ages. The truth behind all the falsities in the faith we took on earth will be revealed before our eyes when we cross the Great Divide, but in a too-late situation. No one gets back to earth after death.

[POI]

You don’t have to take my word about the omniscient nature of the Lord Jesus because you can reach out to Him any time you want.

I already told you I attempted to do so myself for decades, with no response at all. At this point, it's pretty clear I was just talking to myself the entire time. Therefore, I must conclude that this claimed (Jesus/Holy Spirit/other) is imaginary. However, as I've pointed out in other thread(s), you can change my mind immediately and also very easily. Since you claim to have access to Him, as he must instead be ignoring me, please ask him, in prayer, some basic and easy questions, upon my behalf, and then relay those easy (Jesus-given) answers back to me.

1. What are the first initials of my real first, middle, and last name?
2. What is my favorite color?
3. Where do my kids work?

Since you can reach out to Him anytime you want, (the right way), I implore you to reach out to Him now and ask Him these (3) simple questions. If you provide the very easy answers to these questions, you will immediately convert me to some form of Christianity, as I will then HAVE to believe you when you say you receive external information from the divine. Failure to complete this very easy task, (or instead issue some lame excuse for why you cannot or will not do this), will further expose that you are either a fraud or completely mistaken in your assertion(s)-- much like when I have asked basic follow-up questions with any claimed "psychic", "medium", or other, -- (who also claim to speak to invisible agencies), with basic further inquiry.

The issue of whether the Exodus of the Jews is true or not actually brings no big deal to the faith, per se, of the Christians, though it may be different to the Biblical Christians. Further, the same is not a prerequisite to the salvation of our souls, so what’s the big deal in taking up this issue?

I have to ask, are you some form of a 'minimal facts Christian'? Here is another thread I created -- to elaborate. (viewtopic.php?t=40714)

Actually, no one can stop the Lord Jesus from proving Himself to those who come to Him in the right way. It just happens that you can count on your fingers those who find their way in the Lord, across all ages. Focusing on the wrong way to the Lord Jesus is what snatches away the attention of many people, across all ages. The truth behind all the falsities in the faith we took on earth will be revealed before our eyes when we cross the Great Divide, but in a too-late situation. No one gets back to earth after death.

OneJack, please tell me how millions of folks, wandering a relatively small space - (in direct relation to the populous' size and also for 4 decades), would yield no evidence of their presence, in an environment where the conditions are also optimal for preserving evidence? Again, we now know the "Pharaoh" would not or could not have succeeded in covering up such evidence.

So yeah, "Christian apologetics", for many, including you, must instead begin with the "handwaving", in that "the Exodus" storyline is of little concern for the real and true Christian.

[OneJack]

[Replying to POI in post #45]

Since you claim to have access to Him, as he must instead be ignoring me, please ask him, in prayer, some basic and easy questions, upon my behalf, and then relay those easy (Jesus-given) answers back to me.

1. What are the first initials of my real first, middle, and last name?
2. What is my favorite color?
3. Where do my kids work?

Since you can reach out to Him anytime you want, (the right way), I implore you to reach out to Him now and ask Him these (3) simple questions. If you provide the very easy answers to these questions, you will immediately convert me to some form of Christianity, as I will then HAVE to believe you when you say you receive external information from the divine. Failure to complete this very easy task, (or instead issue some lame excuse for why you cannot or will not do this), will further expose that you are either a fraud or completely mistaken in your assertion(s)-- much like when I have asked basic follow-up questions with any claimed "psychic", "medium", or other, -- (who also claim to speak to invisible agencies), with basic further inquiry.

No one can command or ask God what He shall do or not do, which in this case, is your desire for me to reach out to God and ask God to quench your thirst for the long-lost and juicy response He should have given you four decades ago. As I’ve told you, God is open to all who come and call on Him in the right way, which is to strip yourself of all the wisdom that you learn on your own so that you have nothing in you, but the wisdom that there is truly God that exists all the time, in whom you are now putting all your attention to come to His presence. Why have a firm and tough persistence resorting to a mediator between God and yourself when the need for this is not necessary? And, worse, you’re putting God to a test by this act, which is lethal and detrimental to the destiny of your soul.

Further, I did not, and have no intention whatsoever, to establish a local church where I will have to affiliate you with, in case I were able to quench your thirst for God’s response, hence, your desire is meaningless in this regard.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #45]

Since you claim to have access to Him, as he must instead be ignoring me, please ask him, in prayer, some basic and easy questions, upon my behalf, and then relay those easy (Jesus-given) answers back to me.

1. What are the first initials of my real first, middle, and last name?
2. What is my favorite color?
3. Where do my kids work?

Since you can reach out to Him anytime you want, (the right way), I implore you to reach out to Him now and ask Him these (3) simple questions. If you provide the very easy answers to these questions, you will immediately convert me to some form of Christianity, as I will then HAVE to believe you when you say you receive external information from the divine. Failure to complete this very easy task, (or instead issue some lame excuse for why you cannot or will not do this), will further expose that you are either a fraud or completely mistaken in your assertion(s)-- much like when I have asked basic follow-up questions with any claimed "psychic", "medium", or other, -- (who also claim to speak to invisible agencies), with basic further inquiry.

No one can command or ask God what He shall do or not do, which in this case, is your desire for me to reach out to God and ask God to quench your thirst for the long-lost and juicy response He should have given you four decades ago. As I’ve told you, God is open to all who come and call on Him in the right way, which is to strip yourself of all the wisdom that you learn on your own so that you have nothing in you, but the wisdom that there is truly God that exists all the time, in whom you are now putting all your attention to come to His presence. Why have a firm and tough persistence resorting to a mediator between God and yourself when the need for this is not necessary? And, worse, you’re putting God to a test by this act, which is lethal and detrimental to the destiny of your soul.

Further, I did not, and have no intention whatsoever, to establish a local church where I will have to affiliate you with, in case I were able to quench your thirst for God’s response, hence, your desire is meaningless in this regard.

I'm getting flashbacks to when I would ask the local claimed psychic, "why don't you just manifest the winning Lotto numbers and retire?" For which the same types of excuses would start to fly.

[OneJack]

[Replying to POI in post #45]

Since you claim to have access to Him, as he must instead be ignoring me, please ask him, in prayer, some basic and easy questions, upon my behalf, and then relay those easy (Jesus-given) answers back to me.

1. What are the first initials of my real first, middle, and last name?
2. What is my favorite color?
3. Where do my kids work?

Since you can reach out to Him anytime you want, (the right way), I implore you to reach out to Him now and ask Him these (3) simple questions. If you provide the very easy answers to these questions, you will immediately convert me to some form of Christianity, as I will then HAVE to believe you when you say you receive external information from the divine. Failure to complete this very easy task, (or instead issue some lame excuse for why you cannot or will not do this), will further expose that you are either a fraud or completely mistaken in your assertion(s)-- much like when I have asked basic follow-up questions with any claimed "psychic", "medium", or other, -- (who also claim to speak to invisible agencies), with basic further inquiry.

No one can command or ask God what He shall do or not do, which in this case, is your desire for me to reach out to God and ask God to quench your thirst for the long-lost and juicy response He should have given you four decades ago. As I’ve told you, God is open to all who come and call on Him in the right way, which is to strip yourself of all the wisdom that you learn on your own so that you have nothing in you, but the wisdom that there is truly God that exists all the time, in whom you are now putting all your attention to come to His presence. Why have a firm and tough persistence resorting to a mediator between God and yourself when the need for this is not necessary? And, worse, you’re putting God to a test by this act, which is lethal and detrimental to the destiny of your soul.

Further, I did not, and have no intention whatsoever, to establish a local church where I will have to affiliate you with, in case I were able to quench your thirst for God’s response, hence, your desire is meaningless in this regard.

I'm getting flashbacks to when I would ask the local claimed psychic, "why don't you just manifest the winning Lotto numbers and retire?" For which the same types of excuses would start to fly.

If a patient lacks the will to recover, even the most effective medicine can't heal him/her.

[POI]

[Replying to OneJack in post #48]

Your statement is objectively false.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #48]

Your statement is objectively false.

Nothing at all won’t heal him, for sure!