The Bible God, the Law Breaker

[POI]

God is claimed to break "natural law" all the time, by walking on water, turning water into wine, raising the rotting dead, turning humans into salt, etc...

For Debate: Does God break all "law", or just some "law"? And if only some, why only some, and not all? Further, what is the point of breaking some "law", and not others? Or maybe, God breaks all "laws", which is why the Bible is illogical, immoral, and defies later human discovery?

Before you answer, a running theme is expressed among many theists... When a skeptic asks a theist, 'can God do anything?", the theist might respond with, "God can only do what is logically possible and/or what is in his moral nature". In essence, God strictly abides by some "law", but not others? By "law", I'm referencing natural law, the laws of logic, moral law, mathematics, and any others I may have missed. I trust you get the gist...?

[bjs1]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #29]


You know EXACLY what I'm talking about here bjs1. It's funny how theists are really good at referencing context, until it is no longer useful for them.

I’m not sure that I do know what you mean. I thought that context was my argument. The word “law” means different things in different contexts. So, as a Theist, I am saying that context is important. If we don’t distinguish the different contexts of the word “law,” then we will come to an unsound conclusion. In this case by equivocation.

[POI]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #41]

Reading comprehension is also a major factor to understand what my expressed given context is. And you can also simply ask me. This isn't the Bible, where we instead have to try and decipher what some ancients really meant when writing what they wrote. Do you understand what I mean, or not? If not, I will be happy to clarify further.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #37]

We are still talking passed one another. Let's try this, yet again. Take "mathematics", as I also referenced in the OP. Can God make 1 + 1 equal anything other than 2?

Now you're into absolutes. Good.

And so, no, God cannot change, alter, nor disannul the eternal absolutes, and make Himself a liar.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not:

Hebrews{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1+1=2 is absolute. 1+1=3 is a lie.

You see, despite the belief in an eternal natural universe without beginning, and the natural world is all there is, it's still only an unproven belief.

Therefore, natural 'law' and logic are not necessarily absolutes, as though they can be 'broken', and make a lie. God can do away with His natural creation, but He cannot lie about it.

Tit 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

It's the eternal absolutes defined by God's own nature, that He cannot change nor do differently than He is forever. He can take on the form of a man, and even become born as a man from the womb, but He cannot change His own divine eternal nature, nor the absolutes within and apart from the natural world, such as 1+1=2. God cannot lie and say it's 3. His word is absolute and unchanging:

Mat 24:35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

[POI]

[Replying to RBD in post #43]

Aren't all of these created "laws" absolute? If not, why call them 'laws' at all? Maybe instead call them a 'suggestion(s).' Again, humans are trying to discover these 'laws', which are already in existence.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #43]

It's the eternal absolutes defined by God's own nature, that He cannot change nor do differently than He is forever. He can take on the form of a man, and even become born as a man from the womb

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
(Numbers 23:19)

but He cannot change His own divine eternal nature

"God cannot be tempted with evil"
(James 1:13)

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #38]

The man Jesus was not God on earth, but God in the flesh on earth. Not being God in heaven at the time, He could therefore be tempted like all people on earth.

If God cannot be tempted, then no one who can be tempted can be fully God.

This a theosophical opinion. Since we are talking about the God of the Bible, then quote Him saying so...But the Bible already records otherwise.

You are mistaking being fully God, with where God is. Being fully God is His holy, good, and righteous character, that is not dependent upon where He is, and what He can become subject to by His own will.

If you're rejecting God coming in the flesh of men on earth, and so being tempted in the flesh like all men, then that's just an opinion of unbelief.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #46]

You are mistaking being fully God, with where God is. Being fully God is His holy, good, and righteous character, that is not dependent upon where He is, and what He can become subject to by His own will.

If God's nature is always the same regardless of where God is, then untemptable God could not become temptable God on earth.

To be a certain thing requires having 100% of that thing's definitive attributes. Therefore, if untemptability is a definitive attribute of God, no one can be fully God without God's definitive attribute of untemptability.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #43]

Aren't all of these created "laws" absolute?

Not if there are exceptions. Speaking of a 2nd law of thermodynamics, is only referring to observable nature. By definition is rules out any creation.

If there is any creation, then it's only a law of nature, not absolute. Those who believe it is absolute law, are only those who believe the natural universe is eternal without creation, beginning, nor end. I.e. the observable universe is as they say, 'all there is'....

If not, why call them 'laws' at all?

Laws for natural things alone...

Maybe instead call them a 'suggestion(s).'

Natural principles.

Again, humans are trying to discover these 'laws', which are already in existence.

Keep up the good work.

And any believer in creation, who doesn't believe the natural universe is all there is, call them laws for natural things alone, or natural principles, that can be overruled by spiritual power:

Jos 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

And furthermore, they aren't 'broken' as with absolute law of good and evil. Overriding natural law makes them mutable principles, not immutable law. And, let's agree beforehand, that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is not being rejected here, but only renamed to allow for creation.

And while we're at it, exactly what 'law' is being broken by resurrection from the dead?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #43]

It's the eternal absolutes defined by God's own nature, that He cannot change nor do differently than He is forever. He can take on the form of a man, and even become born as a man from the womb

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
(Numbers 23:19)

1. The Scripture is spoken in the present. Nor saying, Never a man. Where after the coming of Jesus Christ, is there any Scripture saying God is not a man? In fact, after His resurrection, the Bible calls Him a man:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


2. Also, the reference is not centered on being a man, but on not being a man that lies...

"Hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

but He cannot change His own divine eternal nature

"God cannot be tempted with evil"
(James 1:13)

Already argued. If you see any error in the response, or something nonsensical, or even contradicted by Scripture, then I'd be glad to here it.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #46]

You are mistaking being fully God, with where God is. Being fully God is His holy, good, and righteous character, that is not dependent upon where He is, and what He can become subject to by His own will.

If God's nature is always the same regardless of where God is, then untemptable God could not become temptable God on earth.

Now this is what I've been waiting for. Very good job, and absolutely correct, which many Bible 'scholars' fail to see.

Now, we get to teach James 1 in context:

Jas 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Also, more exactly to the point:

1Pe 1:6
Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:12
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

We temptation that is blessed in being trials of faith, shared with the Lord Jesus Himself on earth.

Now we compare:

Jas 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Here we see temptation with evil by lust. Which is not blessed for any man, but cursed with enticement and death.

When speaking of temptation, there's an obvious difference in the kind of temptation, one blessed the same as Jesus the righteous, and the other cursed the same as for all the unrighteous.

One is trial of faith allowed by God, which He himself suffered in the flesh. The other is temptation with lust, which is only allowed by the ungodly in themselves. Jesus Christ was never tempted with lust, but only with trials in life. He did not suffer from lusting after sin, but from the trials upon His heart and body.

It's one thing for a good soldier to be tried in training and war, but an entirely different thing for a thief to be tempted with stealing. West Point's main trial, is to test faithful obedience to military rule and law. The ones tempted with lust to disobey, are weeded out, while those being tried in mind and body without lust to disobey, are given commissioned rank within the military in times of peace and especially of war, where Unfaithful disobedience then can get oneself, and better soldiers killed.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Earth was God's West Point and live fire, where His Son was tempted with all manner of trials in obedience, and having no lust to be tempted with, was faithfully obedient unto the end, especially on a cross:

Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Setting aside His throne in glory, He became a man, in order to be tried in obedience as a man on earth, not tempted with lust to do evil.

Heb 4:15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The Scripture does not say Jesus was tempted the same as all men, including with lust as the ungodly, but only tried the same as His faithful saints; Whose hearts have now been purged of lust, envy, and covetousness, to become the same as the man Jesus in the days of His own flesh on earth.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Conclusion: James 12-3 and 1 Peter 1:7, 4:12 is obviously speaking of God in heaven, not of God in the man Jesus on earth. There is no temptation at all for God on the throne of heaven, neither in trials nor with lust. Nor now is the man Christ Jesus seated on His right hand.

To be a certain thing requires having 100% of that thing's definitive attributes. Therefore, if untemptability is a definitive attribute of God, no one can be fully God without God's definitive attribute of untemptability.

Well said again. I'll use it elsewhere, in order to define better define the argument.

God is never apart from His pure and holy nature, and can never be tempted with evil. Neither was the man Jesus on earth, who came to be tried in faith as a man, with obedience toward God in heaven. His untemptability is only with lust to do evil, not with trials of faith to do good.

As they say, faith untried, is faith unperfected:

Heb{5:8}
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

No man can say God ever tempts anyone with evil, nor can any man now say, that God Himself has never been tempted with trials of obedience, like other faithful men on earth.

I'm glad you saw the point, so I could teach from the Bible, that not many believers and even teachers understand. And once again, such teachings are sometimes results of needing to set aside, what otherwise would be a real contradiction in the Bible.

The best commander is he that endures the same trials as the soldiers, in learning to obey, so that he does not demand of them what He himself cannot, or does not do.

Thanks.