When was Heaven created?

[Diagoras]

The concept of ‘heaven’ doesn’t really feature in the Old Testament. The closest thing is ‘Sheol’ (or ‘Hades’ in the Greek) which is supposedly a dark resting place under the earth.

After death, whether good or wicked, everyone goes there to rest until some future resurrection.

By the time of the New Testament, heaven is described differently. See John 14:2 for example.

So, when did God create heaven? Does Sheol still exist as a ‘halfway house’ as well?

[A Freeman]

God's very first creation was Prince Michael/Christ.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

Everything else and everyone else Father created through/by Prince Michael/Christ for Prince Michael/Christ.

Colossians 1:12-16
1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into The Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for him:

Hebrews 1:1-6
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by The Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten (created) thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son?
1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten (first-created) into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the community of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness (Rev.1:5), the beginning of the creation of God;

This is how Father taught Prince Michael/Christ everything.

John 5:19-20
5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that Himself doeth: and He will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

[The Tanager]

hmm... well heaven is not generally considered a "physical" anything but if you feel that Jesus was in heaven while being on earth and that when he said he was going to the father he was simply staying on earth (since the Father was on earth with him) , do you think this idea is supported with scripture?

I don't see how the context of John 14 fits the concept of a future existence in this alternative location called heaven. The whole context of this chapter is Jesus' death and resurrection as well as how the Spirit will guide the disciples on earth. I currently lean towards thinking that Jesus is equating his willing unity with the Father on going to the cross for our good with going away to the Father. In other words, Jesus is saying that he is going his Father's way. Let me share more about why I think that fits the context best.

In John 13, Jesus has just talked about his coming betrayal, abandonment, Peter's denial, and his crucifixion and the disciples are distressed over this. Jesus tells them to not be distressed, but to trust in God and him (14:1). Then he uses temple language, where the temple is "my Father's house" that has many "rooms". I understand that the temple would have rooms that pilgrims could stay in while on their pilgrimage. And the temple was the place associated with God's presence. So, Jesus is probably saying that even though they will betray, abandon, and deny him, that there is a place for them still in God's presence and that Jesus' "going away" (death on the cross) and "coming back" (resurrection) is what will accomplish that (14:2-3). Those two things will also be why we can perform greater deeds than Jesus did (14:12-14), as well as having the Spirit with them (14:15-17). Jesus says he's telling them this ahead of time so that when it (death and resurrection) happens, they may believe/trust in him (14:29).

The other possibility I see is that Jesus could be using this language to speak to his temporary, intermediate state after death awaiting his resurrection, which we go through as well. Eventually, however, we are resurrected to life back on a renewed earth, while those still on earth are called to work with the Spirit towards the redemption and renewal of the earth. I think other passages speak to this temporary state, but if Jesus is talking about that here, he doesn't call this heaven.

So, to clarify, I'm not saying that Jesus stayed on earth as though heaven and earth are synonyms. I believe there is an intermediate state, but from there we await resurrection to life on this earth, which is being made heavenly and will extend goodness into eternity.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, to clarify, I'm not saying that Jesus stayed on earth as though heaven and earth are synonyms. I believe there is an intermediate state, but from there we await resurrection to life on this earth, which is being made heavenly and will extend goodness into eternity.

I'm still not clear, in this intetpretation of God's house being the temple, where is God the Father and all his angels?

While Jesus was speaking to his disciples where was his Father...in the temple? Not in the temple , somewhere else? If somewhere else...where was he?

[The Tanager]

I'm still not clear, in this intetpretation of God's house being the temple, where is God the Father and all his angels?

While Jesus was speaking to his disciples where was his Father...in the temple? Not in the temple , somewhere else? If somewhere else...where was he?

The Father is omnipresent, present at all physical locations (but immaterially so). The temple was a symbol of God's presence, not the only location of it. Jesus was telling his anxious followers that their coming failure and his death would not make it so that they couldn't be in God's presence. His death and resurrection would make it so that they could be in God's presence and that God could make His residence within each of them. That is the "place" Jesus was going to prepare for them.

The angels, as immaterial beings also aren't located in a different physical location, but cannot be present to all physical locations at once like the Father can.

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm still not clear, in this intetpretation of God's house being the temple, where is God the Father and all his angels?

While Jesus was speaking to his disciples where was his Father...in the temple? Not in the temple , somewhere else? If somewhere else...where was he?

The Father is omnipresent, present at all physical locations (but immaterially so).

Okay I get where you are coming from, so when the resurrected Jesus said he had not yet ascended to the Father, he meant his Father was right there with him at the physical location where he was speaking to Mary but that he hadn't yet ascended to be with the Father who was also at the same time not with him but would be "with him" in the futute in heaven where He lives with his angels - heaven being ...what is heaven again?

[The Tanager]

Okay I get where you are coming from, so when the resurrected Jesus said he had not yet ascended to the Father, he meant his Father was right there with him at the physical location where he was speaking to Mary but that he hadn't yet ascended to be with the Father who was also at the same time not with him but would be "with him" in the futute in heaven where He lives with his angels - heaven being ...what is heaven again?

Being seated at the right hand of God reflects Daniel 7 and is about the Son of Man taking the seat of authority over the affairs of the world, not just physically being next to the Father. The ascension is about "going" to a seat of power, not about changing his physical address. Yes, Jesus is now physically absent, but has a more powerful presence to us than he could when physically limited.

Ephesians 4:10 talks about Jesus ascending far above all the heavens. Following your reasoning, this would mean that he isn't with the Father and the angels in heaven, but in a different location above them. Rather, it seems to me, Eph 4 is talking about Jesus' authority and how unity in the body of Christ comes about. Therefore, His ascension also seems to be about God empowering His people to do His mission on earth. Thus, 'heaven' is a sort of control room for earth.

As Matthew has Jesus saying, all authority has been given to him and for us to remember that He would always be with us, to the very end of the age.

I think this (and more) shows heaven and earth to be more like different states than different locations within the same continumm of space or matter. While physically absent, Jesus is still available and accessible 'from' heaven to us here, so that we don't have to float off to visit Him.

[JehovahsWitness]

...Yes, Jesus is now physically absent, but has a more powerful presence to us than he could when physically limited.

Agreed. So where is Jesus at present, is he on earth? In heaven ...or is he also "omnipresent" ie on earth and in heaven at the same time? .... And where are the angels ? Are the angels also omnipresent ? If not, where are they?

[The Tanager]

...Yes, Jesus is now physically absent, but has a more powerful presence to us than he could when physically limited.

Agreed. So where is Jesus at present, is he on earth? In heaven ...or is he also "omnipresent" ie on earth and in heaven at the same time? .... And where are the angels ? Are the angels also omnipresent ? If not, where are they?

Jesus is not physically on earth or physically in heaven. Jesus has a glorified body that is present "in" heaven, but not present in a physical sense because that would require heaven to be a physical place. You seemed to say yourself that you don't believe heaven is physical (or maybe you were just alluding to the common conception?).

Omnipresent does not mean to be in both earth and heaven at the same time, as though each of those is a different part of the spatial continuum. I believe humans can be present in heaven and on earth in the same moment, for instance. Or they can be present in hell and earth in the same moment.

'Omnipresence' is about a spiritual being like God being present and accessible at all physical locations in the same moment. We are not omnipresent and neither are angels.

What is your view of heaven and earth? You keep treating heaven like a different physical address from earth.

[JehovahsWitness]

...Yes, Jesus is now physically absent, but has a more powerful presence to us than he could when physically limited.

Agreed. So where is Jesus at present, is he on earth? In heaven ...or is he also "omnipresent" ie on earth and in heaven at the same time? .... And where are the angels ? Are the angels also omnipresent ? If not, where are they?

Jesus is not physically on earth or physically in heaven. Jesus has a glorified body that is present "in" heaven, but not present in a physical sense

I think we can both agree Jesus is no longer a physical being. Ok so Jesus (a spiritual being) is in heaven.

What is your view of heaven and earth?

My view is they are not the same thing ;that somebody on earth is not in heaven. And that if you are in heaven you are not also on earth.

Do what do you believe, what is this heaven that Jesus is presently in? Are angels there ,(ie in heaven) too?

JW

[The Tanager]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #19]

I agree that heaven and earth are not the same thing. I don’t think that means somebody on earth is not in heaven. I think the Bible talks about heaven (in the sense of being a spiritual realm) and earth overlapping at times (such as at the Burning Bush). God was in heaven and on earth there.

I also think the Bible talks about this overlapping happening in the Person of Jesus and that His life, death, and resurrection is making that happen in our lives as well right now through the indwelling of the Spirit. Jesus did that in a particular way with a human body, but now has a glorified human body that, currently, is in heaven. Angels are there, too.