To all true Christians there is nothing more important to our salvation than "The Atonement of Jesus Christ".
Having said that, is it not therefore extremely important to every individual to understand fully what and how the atonement works for our benefit?
What does the atonement do or does not do?
What is required on our part to receive the full benefits of the atonement?
What and when and by whom did the atonement begin?
Can anyone clearly show all scriptures pertaining to the atonement?
I look forward to hearing your "take" on this most important topic.
Kind regards,
RW
The Atonement
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Re: The Atonement
Post #1331Onewithhim (OWH) said:
“No, there is a great misunderstanding of what "the world" means, and the verse says "world" and NOT "earth." Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD, and that means the world of mankind alienated from God, not the planet. It is the "world" that is talked about at I John 2:15-17. When Adam rebelled, the "world" had not started yet. It would begin with the birth of Cain. So when Adam disobeyed, Jehovah planned to provide a ransom for the world of mankind, and this was "before the foundation of the world" [alienated from God] that started with Cain.
My response: OWH said “Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD,”
My response:
To this I heartily agree. Indeed Christ was “foreordained” too be the lamb who’s mission was to be slain as the infinite and great eternal atoning sacrifice as our savior and redeemer. This was long before the placement of Adam in the garden. God makes no mistakes and Christs foreordination at that time was also no mistake.
OWH said:
“Jesus was not planned to redeem mankind before Adam failed to remain faithful to God. Only afterward. If Adam had remained faithful, Jesus would never have had to come to the earth.”
My response:
I find it a bit amusing that your above response clearly contradicts your earlier response wherein you stated: “ “Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD,” …………….
OWH said: "Jesus paid for our sins, sins that we cannot help because we inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled). Because of Adam's rebellion he was on the road to death, as he was warned would happen if he disobeyed. He lost his perfection and the sin he carried on caused him to grow old and die before he was 1,000 years old. (A day to Jehovah.) We have the tendency to sin because of inheritance from Adam.
My response:
Adams sin must have been very minor because he lived nearly 1000 years after transgressing! Your sins and my sins must have been 10 times greater since we now live usually less the 100 yers!
Wow! Your above claim is amazing wherein you now clearly state that Adam was indeed the first perfect man on this earth! This is amazing, for I always understood that Christ the only sinless person on this earth! Where in the world did you JW’s ever come up with evidence??? Can you quote the scriptures wherein Adam learned obedience by the things which he suffered and was then he also like Christ was made “PERFECT”?
OWH then declared:
“that we "inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled)."
My response: Your claim is utterly false. This is nothing but a false claim which you are clearly unable to defend. But feel free to do so as I find this claim most amazing. Please produce first the genetic makeup of Adam before the fall and next provide the genetic makeup of Adam after the fall....I can hardly wait to see your scientific proof of your claim!.
This gets more incredible all time! Your doctrine is that all of Adam’s descendants inherited this faulty DNA from him and therefore cannot be perfect.
I therefore strongly remind you that Jesus Christ is also a descendent of Adam. Christ a literal descendant of ADAM was made perfect! Christ is our exemplar! This fact clearly blows your false JW claims out of the water.
So you JW’s teach that Jesus Christ was born with a defective DNA inherited from his ancestor Adam……I do not know what others believe , but for me this is the epitome of absurdity!
OWH made the claim regarding Adams genetic makeup. I asked you to provide scientific proof of your claim. You have provided nothing to support your wild genetic claim. If you cannot answer directly, then please provide evidence from a previous topic giving post number and date. If you cannot provide proof, then this claim of yours amounts to nothing but untruth and something from a wild figment of your imagination.
OWH said: “Dear RW,
Of course I can't prove what Adam's genetic makeup was. I use my brain to REASON. (Isaiah 1:18, KJV) Romans 5:18 and 19 tells us what happened to cause Adam's progeny to die.
"As through one trespass the result to all men was condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift cam upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
How was a previously perfect man, destined to live forever, able to pass on perfection to his children after he was condemned? Wouldn't a scientific mind say it's in the DNA? Adam was condemned after he sinned, so he was damaged somehow to not be able to pass on perfection to his offspring. Isn't it logical to think that his DNA was involved? A damaged person cannot pass on perfection and life.
My response:
I find it most incredible that you claim that Adam was cursed with no chance of repentance and was condemned to hell…… Can you show scripture that this was Adam’s final destiny?
So what you JW's are also clearly teaching is that Christ is NOT the savior of all mankind.
Also it has been my understanding that the Lord cursed Lucifer. Wherein has the Lord cursed Adam?
As I see it everything he did was for Adam and Eve’s comfort and benefit.
Our very birth is a door and gateway into the world of mortality.
Death is likewise a door opened for the blessings of Christ’s atonement and also the key whereby we can also partake of the mighty resurrection provided by Christ.
“No, there is a great misunderstanding of what "the world" means, and the verse says "world" and NOT "earth." Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD, and that means the world of mankind alienated from God, not the planet. It is the "world" that is talked about at I John 2:15-17. When Adam rebelled, the "world" had not started yet. It would begin with the birth of Cain. So when Adam disobeyed, Jehovah planned to provide a ransom for the world of mankind, and this was "before the foundation of the world" [alienated from God] that started with Cain.
My response: OWH said “Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD,”
My response:
To this I heartily agree. Indeed Christ was “foreordained” too be the lamb who’s mission was to be slain as the infinite and great eternal atoning sacrifice as our savior and redeemer. This was long before the placement of Adam in the garden. God makes no mistakes and Christs foreordination at that time was also no mistake.
OWH said:
“Jesus was not planned to redeem mankind before Adam failed to remain faithful to God. Only afterward. If Adam had remained faithful, Jesus would never have had to come to the earth.”
My response:
I find it a bit amusing that your above response clearly contradicts your earlier response wherein you stated: “ “Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD,” …………….
OWH said: "Jesus paid for our sins, sins that we cannot help because we inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled). Because of Adam's rebellion he was on the road to death, as he was warned would happen if he disobeyed. He lost his perfection and the sin he carried on caused him to grow old and die before he was 1,000 years old. (A day to Jehovah.) We have the tendency to sin because of inheritance from Adam.
My response:
Adams sin must have been very minor because he lived nearly 1000 years after transgressing! Your sins and my sins must have been 10 times greater since we now live usually less the 100 yers!
Wow! Your above claim is amazing wherein you now clearly state that Adam was indeed the first perfect man on this earth! This is amazing, for I always understood that Christ the only sinless person on this earth! Where in the world did you JW’s ever come up with evidence??? Can you quote the scriptures wherein Adam learned obedience by the things which he suffered and was then he also like Christ was made “PERFECT”?
OWH then declared:
“that we "inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled)."
My response: Your claim is utterly false. This is nothing but a false claim which you are clearly unable to defend. But feel free to do so as I find this claim most amazing. Please produce first the genetic makeup of Adam before the fall and next provide the genetic makeup of Adam after the fall....I can hardly wait to see your scientific proof of your claim!.
This gets more incredible all time! Your doctrine is that all of Adam’s descendants inherited this faulty DNA from him and therefore cannot be perfect.
I therefore strongly remind you that Jesus Christ is also a descendent of Adam. Christ a literal descendant of ADAM was made perfect! Christ is our exemplar! This fact clearly blows your false JW claims out of the water.
So you JW’s teach that Jesus Christ was born with a defective DNA inherited from his ancestor Adam……I do not know what others believe , but for me this is the epitome of absurdity!
OWH made the claim regarding Adams genetic makeup. I asked you to provide scientific proof of your claim. You have provided nothing to support your wild genetic claim. If you cannot answer directly, then please provide evidence from a previous topic giving post number and date. If you cannot provide proof, then this claim of yours amounts to nothing but untruth and something from a wild figment of your imagination.
OWH said: “Dear RW,
Of course I can't prove what Adam's genetic makeup was. I use my brain to REASON. (Isaiah 1:18, KJV) Romans 5:18 and 19 tells us what happened to cause Adam's progeny to die.
"As through one trespass the result to all men was condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift cam upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
How was a previously perfect man, destined to live forever, able to pass on perfection to his children after he was condemned? Wouldn't a scientific mind say it's in the DNA? Adam was condemned after he sinned, so he was damaged somehow to not be able to pass on perfection to his offspring. Isn't it logical to think that his DNA was involved? A damaged person cannot pass on perfection and life.
My response:
I find it most incredible that you claim that Adam was cursed with no chance of repentance and was condemned to hell…… Can you show scripture that this was Adam’s final destiny?
So what you JW's are also clearly teaching is that Christ is NOT the savior of all mankind.
Also it has been my understanding that the Lord cursed Lucifer. Wherein has the Lord cursed Adam?
As I see it everything he did was for Adam and Eve’s comfort and benefit.
Our very birth is a door and gateway into the world of mortality.
Death is likewise a door opened for the blessings of Christ’s atonement and also the key whereby we can also partake of the mighty resurrection provided by Christ.
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Re: The Atonement
Post #1332Dear JW's
My last post was but a foretaste of my responses which it appears that you are still trying to provide definitive scriptural responses.
Please understand that I clearly understand your difficulty since you clearly deny the revelations of the Holy Ghost and merely rely on your own man made scientific interpretations of the scriptures or the philosophy of man made interpretations of scriptures.
Remember the scripture that teaches : " For what man knowers the things of a man, but the spirit of man which is in him. Even so the things of God knowerth no man save the spirit of God. You would dwell to remember that the scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Ghost will and can and will teach us "all things" provided that we prepare ourselves to receive "all things".
Be it clearly understood that without that spirit one is so relegated to unproved scientific learning and must rely on ones own deductive man made answers or blindly follow the man made philosophies of so called scholars.
My last post was but a foretaste of my responses which it appears that you are still trying to provide definitive scriptural responses.
Please understand that I clearly understand your difficulty since you clearly deny the revelations of the Holy Ghost and merely rely on your own man made scientific interpretations of the scriptures or the philosophy of man made interpretations of scriptures.
Remember the scripture that teaches : " For what man knowers the things of a man, but the spirit of man which is in him. Even so the things of God knowerth no man save the spirit of God. You would dwell to remember that the scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Ghost will and can and will teach us "all things" provided that we prepare ourselves to receive "all things".
Be it clearly understood that without that spirit one is so relegated to unproved scientific learning and must rely on ones own deductive man made answers or blindly follow the man made philosophies of so called scholars.
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Re: The Atonement
Post #1333Dear JW's,
I am patiently awaiting your well founded doctrinal response to all points listed in my above two posts.
I am patiently awaiting your well founded doctrinal response to all points listed in my above two posts.
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Re: The Atonement
Post #1334Dear JW's,
I am ready and willing to hear from you on this topic. I also clearly understand the you clearly deny Christ's literal resurrection. It is also obvious that you also deny that Christ is perfect and sinless. Rest assured that I am open to your responses.
Best regards,
RW
I am ready and willing to hear from you on this topic. I also clearly understand the you clearly deny Christ's literal resurrection. It is also obvious that you also deny that Christ is perfect and sinless. Rest assured that I am open to your responses.
Best regards,
RW
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Re: The Atonement
Post #1335Dear JW's,
You stated the following:
OWH said: "OWH said:
“Jesus was not planned to redeem mankind before Adam failed to remain faithful to God. Only afterward. If Adam had remained faithful, Jesus would never have had to come to the earth.”
My response:
I find it a bit amusing that your above response clearly contradicts your earlier response wherein you stated: “ “Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD,” …………….
OWH said: "Jesus paid for our sins, sins that we cannot help because we inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled). Because of Adam's rebellion he was on the road to death, as he was warned would happen if he disobeyed. He lost his perfection and the sin he carried on caused him to grow old and die before he was 1,000 years old. (A day to Jehovah.) We have the tendency to sin because of inheritance from Adam.
My response:
Adams sin must have been very minor because he lived nearly 1000 years after transgressing! Your sins and my sins must have been 10 times greater since we now live usually less the 100 yers!
Wow! Your above claim is amazing wherein you now clearly state that Adam was indeed the first perfect man on this earth! This is amazing, for I always understood that Christ the only sinless person on this earth! Where in the world did you JW’s ever come up with evidence??? Can you quote the scriptures wherein Adam learned obedience by the things which he suffered and was then he also like Christ was made “PERFECT”?
OWH then declared:
“that we "inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled)."
My response: Your claim is utterly false. This is nothing but a false claim which you are clearly unable to defend. But feel free to do so as I find this claim most amazing. Please produce first the genetic makeup of Adam before the fall and next provide the genetic makeup of Adam after the fall....I can hardly wait to see your scientific proof of your claim!.
This gets more incredible all the time! Your doctrine is that all of Adam’s descendants inherited this faulty DNA from him and therefore cannot be perfect.
I therefore strongly remind you that Jesus Christ is also a descendent of Adam. Christ a literal descendant of ADAM was made perfect! Christ is our exemplar! This fact clearly blows your false JW claims out of the water.
So you JW’s teach that Jesus Christ was born with a defective DNA inherited from his ancestor Adam……I do not know what others believe , but for me this is the epitome of absurdity!
You stated the following:
OWH said: "OWH said:
“Jesus was not planned to redeem mankind before Adam failed to remain faithful to God. Only afterward. If Adam had remained faithful, Jesus would never have had to come to the earth.”
My response:
I find it a bit amusing that your above response clearly contradicts your earlier response wherein you stated: “ “Jesus' ransom was planned before the foundations of the WORLD,” …………….
OWH said: "Jesus paid for our sins, sins that we cannot help because we inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled). Because of Adam's rebellion he was on the road to death, as he was warned would happen if he disobeyed. He lost his perfection and the sin he carried on caused him to grow old and die before he was 1,000 years old. (A day to Jehovah.) We have the tendency to sin because of inheritance from Adam.
My response:
Adams sin must have been very minor because he lived nearly 1000 years after transgressing! Your sins and my sins must have been 10 times greater since we now live usually less the 100 yers!
Wow! Your above claim is amazing wherein you now clearly state that Adam was indeed the first perfect man on this earth! This is amazing, for I always understood that Christ the only sinless person on this earth! Where in the world did you JW’s ever come up with evidence??? Can you quote the scriptures wherein Adam learned obedience by the things which he suffered and was then he also like Christ was made “PERFECT”?
OWH then declared:
“that we "inherited the faulty genetic makeup of Adam (that he attained after he rebelled)."
My response: Your claim is utterly false. This is nothing but a false claim which you are clearly unable to defend. But feel free to do so as I find this claim most amazing. Please produce first the genetic makeup of Adam before the fall and next provide the genetic makeup of Adam after the fall....I can hardly wait to see your scientific proof of your claim!.
This gets more incredible all the time! Your doctrine is that all of Adam’s descendants inherited this faulty DNA from him and therefore cannot be perfect.
I therefore strongly remind you that Jesus Christ is also a descendent of Adam. Christ a literal descendant of ADAM was made perfect! Christ is our exemplar! This fact clearly blows your false JW claims out of the water.
So you JW’s teach that Jesus Christ was born with a defective DNA inherited from his ancestor Adam……I do not know what others believe , but for me this is the epitome of absurdity!
