The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[Clownboat]

Excerpt below from:

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com ... ny-decades

After 30 years nothing would remain. The bones would be completely worn away. This article has an in-depth analysis:

J Forensic Sci 1989 May;34(3):607-16.
Decay Rates of Human Remains in an Arid Environment

It indicates that an exposed corpse would be mostly worn down to bone fragments with in 3 years:



As the figure indicates, after 3 years complete skeletal decomposition has already begun. After 30 years there would be nothing left.

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Reasonable question: Is it reasonable to assume that we would find skeletal remains after 3000 years, when forensic scientist estimate there would be nothing left of a skeleton in that type of environment after 30 years?

And yet we find what you claim we won't!

A scientific expedition has found a 33,000-year-old skeleton of an Egyptian, the oldest human relic ever found in this country. The Government-owned daily Al Ahram said that the bones were found in the Firan valley in the Sinai desert.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/21/worl ... of%20years.

The following excerpt is from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazlet_Khater

Nazlet Khater[1] is an archeological site located in Upper Egypt that has yielded evidence of early human culture and anatomically modern specimens dating to approximately thirty to fifty thousand years ago.

And what/where is "Upper Egypt"?

From the provided hyperlink in the Nazlet_Khater article, which goes to...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Egypt
...we find the following:

Upper Egypt (Arabic: صعيد مصر Ṣaʿīd Miṣr, shortened to الصعيد, Egyptian Arabic pronunciation: [es.sˤe.ˈʕiːd], locally: [es.sˤɑ.ˈʕiːd]; Coptic: ⲙⲁⲣⲏⲥ, romanized: Mares) is the southern portion of Egypt and is composed of the Nile River valley south of the delta and the 30th parallel N. It thus consists of the entire Nile River valley from Cairo south to Lake Nasser (formed by the Aswan High Dam).[2]

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So not a desert area at all; instead the exact opposite. These skeletal remains were literally found in the wettest part of Egypt: the Nile River valley in Africa; NOT on the Sinai peninsula in Asia.

Continuing from the "Upper Egypt" link above, we find the following:

Name

In ancient Egypt, Upper Egypt was known as tꜣ šmꜣw,[3] literally "the Land of Reeds" or "the Sedgeland", named for the sedges that grow there.[4]

-------

The number one corrupter of radiocarbon (carbon-14) dating is WATER, because the water prematurely washes out the radiation, making the tested specimens seem dramatically older than they really are. And no one knows exactly how much water any given sample has been exposed to, which makes the entire process nothing more than guesswork.

The following excerpt is from:

https://www.nature.com/articles/BMC2050-7445-1-24

The freshwater reservoir effect can result in anomalously old radiocarbon ages of samples from lakes and rivers. This includes the bones of people whose subsistence was based on freshwater fish, and pottery in which fish was cooked. Water rich in dissolved ancient calcium carbonates, commonly known as hard water, is the most common reason for the freshwater reservoir effect. It is therefore also called hardwater effect. Although it has been known for more than 60 years, it is still less well-recognized by archaeologists than the marine reservoir effect. The aim of this study is to examine the order of magnitude and degree of variability of the freshwater reservoir effect over short and long timescales. Radiocarbon dating of recent water samples, aquatic plants, and animals, shows that age differences of up to 2000 14C years can occur within one river. The freshwater reservoir effect has also implications for radiocarbon dating of Mesolithic pottery from inland sites of the Ertebølle culture in Northern Germany. The surprisingly old ages of the earliest pottery most probably are caused by a freshwater reservoir effect.

-------

Another admission from the inventor of radiocarbon-dating William Libby about the dating process, from:

https://armstronginstitute.org/716-an-o ... bon-dating -

Following his invention of the science, Willard Libby originally attempted to use this method to check against the accuracy of his raw radiocarbon data. In his 1960 Nobel Prize acceptance lecture, Libby highlighted the immediate issue his team came up against: the ambiguity of historical ages. “You read statements in books that such and such a society or archaeological site is 20,000 years old,” he said. “We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is about the time of the First Dynasty in Egypt [circa 3000 b.c.e.] that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.” (Still, there remains much debate even about the dating of this period.)

-------



If people want to make a god out of this pseudo-scientific nonsense, that's their prerogative. Just don't expect the rest of us to blindly accept this obvious garbage.

And a few additional questions about the blatant hypocrisy being exhibited here...

Where are all of the friends and family members of the "Nazlet Khater" skeleton that would have been living with him in the lush Nile river valley?

Where are the millions upon millions that lived in the Nile River valley 3000-4000 years ago, when Egypt ruled the entire known world? And why would anyone believe that this one skeleton somehow survived for tens of thousands of years, when millions from only 3000-4000 years ago didn't?

Who can honestly dispute that the "Nazlet Khater" skeleton may not have belonged to someone who only recently died and that this publicity stunt is nothing more than a testament to how wildly inaccurate radiocarbon dating really is?

One cannot drag a single skeleton out of the closet and then honestly claim they've "debunked" thousands of years of recorded history and eye-witness testimony.

THINK about it.

So many words.
Do you think we will ever find any evidence for millions that wandered the Sinai as told in the Bible? Any at all?

I acknowledge that you don't accept radio carbon dating and find this denial uninteresting. Deny whatever you need in order to maintain your religions beliefs as most religious people seem to do, but I could not care less about things you happen to deny. What I would care about is things you can show as credible evidence for the event we are discussing here.

[Clownboat]

Apparently the OP doesn't know how reality operates.

Starting right off with slander... nice!

Do all US election happened as claimed?

Make a claim about them and we can see if it holds true.

What evidence shows, say, the first 5 president elections did occur?

We can start with evidence for George Washington. Let me know if you actually doubt the next 4 presidents.
Medallions commemorating Washington’s inauguration
https://www.mountvernon.org/george-wash ... t-election

Any 'outside US' documents mentioned the details such as vote counts (any who ever verified the vote count claims being true)?

I don't know off the top of my head and I don't feel like doing this work for you.

Did Confucius in China ever exist?

Historians think so. Unlike the exodus story as told in the Bible.
There is also his descendants to account for: Confucius's family, the Kongs, have the longest recorded extant pedigree in the world today.

Any "outside of China" document mentioned so? Did Confucius ever wrote any books? What proof is that those claimed books are actually written by Confucius?

The father-to-son family tree, now in its 83rd generation,[135] has been recorded since the death of Confucius. According to the Confucius Genealogy Compilation Committee (CGCC), he has two million known and registered descendants, and there are an estimated three million in all.[136] Of these, several tens of thousands live outside of China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius

Your claim about the OP not understanding reality, doesn't seem to comport with reality.

[POI]

Google is summarizing it with AI responses. What I'm asking for is to provide a link to the source of the claim so that anyone can verify what was said.

Hmm? So, AI is summarizing it wrong in this instance? See below...

Please address why it was during the reign of Ahmose I that wide scale chattel slavery rose and yet if he conquered the Hyksos, he expelled them instead of enslaved them. It's not like they viewed them favorably either since all records of them malign them. Further, the Hyksos explains the sudden rise of large scale slavery during his reign. During the entire history of Egypt, there was no evidence of any large scale chattel slavery prior. And yet at this point in history, we have evidence of it.

Ahmose I wanted the Hyksos gone, so he expelled them. But yes, he did enslave tribes in which he captured and not expelled, like the Nubians and the Syrians.

AI: "Who did Ahmose I enslave?"

Ahmose I is primarily known for expelling the Hyksos from Egypt and uniting the country, not for enslaving specific groups. However, during his military campaigns, including the expulsion of the Hyksos and the subsequent conquests in Nubia and Syria, Egyptians did capture and enslave people from conquered regions, including Nubians and Syrians. These captives were often taken as personal servants or used for labor.

Elaboration:

Hyksos: Ahmose I's main accomplishment was driving out the Hyksos, a foreign ruling dynasty that had controlled northern Egypt for about a century. The Hyksos were not enslaved; their territory was conquered, and they were expelled or assimilated into Egyptian society.

Military Campaigns: Ahmose I's military campaigns, particularly the ones against Nubia and the Syrian coast, resulted in the capture of people from those regions.

Slaves as Spoil: Ahmose I rewarded his officers and soldiers with spoils of war, including enslaved people.

Personal Servants: The enslaved people were often used as personal servants, contributing to the growing wealth and influence of the Egyptian military class.

No Mention of Israelites: The enslavement of the Israelites, as depicted in the Bible, is attributed to a later pharaoh, not Ahmose I. The pharaoh who knew not Joseph, who is often associated with the enslavement of the Israelites, is believed to be a ruler later in Egyptian history.

**********************************************************

After the Hyksos were defeated, around 1535BCE, were the Hyksos (enslaved or expelled)? Well, AI, as well as source(s), states they were expelled. Which means they mostly left. (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... he-hyksos/)

What would cause such a shift? With the Bible, we have an event that easily explains it.

The Bible is nothing more than "fake news".

I have no idea what you mean here.

All other interlocutors, who believe "the Exodus" was an actual event, are giving excuses as to why we have no evidence for millions of 'Israelites' being enslaved for centuries in Egypt. You likely realize that such an event would leave evidence. Which is why you, instead, are trying to link another tribe and make it 'fit.' But we know the timeline itself is off by centuries. We also know the Hyksos were expelled and not enslaved. Trying to state Ahmose I enslaved the Hyksos is nothing more than wishful thinking. to hold on to a wanted "narrative".

[POI]

[Replying to Hawkins in post #790]

Aside from Clownboat's response, all I see here is yet another excuse for why believers can provide no evidence for the claim that millions of Israelites were enslaved in Egypt for centuries.

[A Freeman]

Excerpt below from:

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com ... ny-decades

After 30 years nothing would remain. The bones would be completely worn away. This article has an in-depth analysis:

J Forensic Sci 1989 May;34(3):607-16.
Decay Rates of Human Remains in an Arid Environment

It indicates that an exposed corpse would be mostly worn down to bone fragments with in 3 years:



As the figure indicates, after 3 years complete skeletal decomposition has already begun. After 30 years there would be nothing left.

-------

Reasonable question: Is it reasonable to assume that we would find skeletal remains after 3000 years, when forensic scientist estimate there would be nothing left of a skeleton in that type of environment after 30 years?

And yet we find what you claim we won't!

A scientific expedition has found a 33,000-year-old skeleton of an Egyptian, the oldest human relic ever found in this country. The Government-owned daily Al Ahram said that the bones were found in the Firan valley in the Sinai desert.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/21/worl ... of%20years.

The following excerpt is from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazlet_Khater

Nazlet Khater[1] is an archeological site located in Upper Egypt that has yielded evidence of early human culture and anatomically modern specimens dating to approximately thirty to fifty thousand years ago.

And what/where is "Upper Egypt"?

From the provided hyperlink in the Nazlet_Khater article, which goes to...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Egypt
...we find the following:

Upper Egypt (Arabic: صعيد مصر Ṣaʿīd Miṣr, shortened to الصعيد, Egyptian Arabic pronunciation: [es.sˤe.ˈʕiːd], locally: [es.sˤɑ.ˈʕiːd]; Coptic: ⲙⲁⲣⲏⲥ, romanized: Mares) is the southern portion of Egypt and is composed of the Nile River valley south of the delta and the 30th parallel N. It thus consists of the entire Nile River valley from Cairo south to Lake Nasser (formed by the Aswan High Dam).[2]

-------

So not a desert area at all; instead the exact opposite. These skeletal remains were literally found in the wettest part of Egypt: the Nile River valley in Africa; NOT on the Sinai peninsula in Asia.

Continuing from the "Upper Egypt" link above, we find the following:

Name

In ancient Egypt, Upper Egypt was known as tꜣ šmꜣw,[3] literally "the Land of Reeds" or "the Sedgeland", named for the sedges that grow there.[4]

-------

The number one corrupter of radiocarbon (carbon-14) dating is WATER, because the water prematurely washes out the radiation, making the tested specimens seem dramatically older than they really are. And no one knows exactly how much water any given sample has been exposed to, which makes the entire process nothing more than guesswork.

The following excerpt is from:

https://www.nature.com/articles/BMC2050-7445-1-24

The freshwater reservoir effect can result in anomalously old radiocarbon ages of samples from lakes and rivers. This includes the bones of people whose subsistence was based on freshwater fish, and pottery in which fish was cooked. Water rich in dissolved ancient calcium carbonates, commonly known as hard water, is the most common reason for the freshwater reservoir effect. It is therefore also called hardwater effect. Although it has been known for more than 60 years, it is still less well-recognized by archaeologists than the marine reservoir effect. The aim of this study is to examine the order of magnitude and degree of variability of the freshwater reservoir effect over short and long timescales. Radiocarbon dating of recent water samples, aquatic plants, and animals, shows that age differences of up to 2000 14C years can occur within one river. The freshwater reservoir effect has also implications for radiocarbon dating of Mesolithic pottery from inland sites of the Ertebølle culture in Northern Germany. The surprisingly old ages of the earliest pottery most probably are caused by a freshwater reservoir effect.

-------

Another admission from the inventor of radiocarbon-dating William Libby about the dating process, from:

https://armstronginstitute.org/716-an-o ... bon-dating -

Following his invention of the science, Willard Libby originally attempted to use this method to check against the accuracy of his raw radiocarbon data. In his 1960 Nobel Prize acceptance lecture, Libby highlighted the immediate issue his team came up against: the ambiguity of historical ages. “You read statements in books that such and such a society or archaeological site is 20,000 years old,” he said. “We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is about the time of the First Dynasty in Egypt [circa 3000 b.c.e.] that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.” (Still, there remains much debate even about the dating of this period.)

-------



If people want to make a god out of this pseudo-scientific nonsense, that's their prerogative. Just don't expect the rest of us to blindly accept this obvious garbage.

And a few additional questions about the blatant hypocrisy being exhibited here...

Where are all of the friends and family members of the "Nazlet Khater" skeleton that would have been living with him in the lush Nile river valley?

Where are the millions upon millions that lived in the Nile River valley 3000-4000 years ago, when Egypt ruled the entire known world? And why would anyone believe that this one skeleton somehow survived for tens of thousands of years, when millions from only 3000-4000 years ago didn't?

Who can honestly dispute that the "Nazlet Khater" skeleton may not have belonged to someone who only recently died and that this publicity stunt is nothing more than a testament to how wildly inaccurate radiocarbon dating really is?

One cannot drag a single skeleton out of the closet and then honestly claim they've "debunked" thousands of years of recorded history and eye-witness testimony.

THINK about it.

So many words.
Do you think we will ever find any evidence for millions that wandered the Sinai as told in the Bible? Any at all?

I acknowledge that you don't accept radio carbon dating and find this denial uninteresting. Deny whatever you need in order to maintain your religions beliefs as most religious people seem to do, but I could not care less about things you happen to deny. What I would care about is things you can show as credible evidence for the event we are discussing here.

Have you ever considered the possibility that you are denying the very obvious flaws in radiocarbon dating to maintain your own errant beliefs?

We already have an entire world FILLED with evidence for millions that wandered in the wilderness of Sin and Sinai, including the direct testimony from those who were there, and the prophecies from that same testimony which have come true in exact and minute detail thousands of years later.

[otseng]

Ahmose I wanted the Hyksos gone, so he expelled them. But yes, he did enslave tribes in which he captured and not expelled, like the Nubians and the Syrians.

As pointed out before, the Hyksos did not leave immediately after their defeat by Ahmose I. You even stated:

Archaeological findings at Tell el-Daba' (Avaris) show that a West Asian population continued to reside there even after the Hyksos were allegedly expelled. This suggests that the expulsion may not have been a complete removal of the Hyksos, and that some may have remained in Egypt.

Archaeological Evidence: Archaeological discoveries in Egypt, particularly in the Eastern Delta, provide evidence of continued production of Hyksos-style pottery and the worship of Canaanite cults, suggesting that the Hyksos and their culture persisted in some form even after their expulsion.

The Hyksos continued to live for some time in Tell el Dab’a for some time after the New Kingdom started:

Instead, archaeological material at Tell el Dab’a indicates a West Asian population continued to live there into the New Kingdom, raising questions about how many people were actually expelled.

https://arce.org/resource/hyksos/

Ahmose I is primarily known for expelling the Hyksos from Egypt and uniting the country, not for enslaving specific groups. However, during his military campaigns, including the expulsion of the Hyksos and the subsequent conquests in Nubia and Syria, Egyptians did capture and enslave people from conquered regions, including Nubians and Syrians. These captives were often taken as personal servants or used for labor.

It makes little sense to conquer people in foreign lands and make them slaves in your own land while at the same time conquer foreigners in your own land and expel them to a distant land. Were the Pharaohs trying to be nice to the Hyksos? And what triggered the Egyptian mentality of having large scale chattel slavery at this point in history?

Slaves as Spoil: Ahmose I rewarded his officers and soldiers with spoils of war, including enslaved people.

Even more reason enslaving the Hyksos would make more sense.

No Mention of Israelites: The enslavement of the Israelites, as depicted in the Bible, is attributed to a later pharaoh, not Ahmose I. The pharaoh who knew not Joseph, who is often associated with the enslavement of the Israelites, is believed to be a ruler later in Egyptian history.

Of course they wouldn't they be mentioned by the Egyptians, it'd be a huge embarrassment for them. The entire story of the Hyksos is a national disgrace, that's why Manetho's story of the Hyksos twists the facts.

The Bible is nothing more than "fake news".

Actually, we have proof that Manetho's account is fake news. Whereas what proof is there the Bible's account is fake?

All other interlocutors, who believe "the Exodus" was an actual event, are giving excuses as to why we have no evidence for millions of 'Israelites' being enslaved for centuries in Egypt.

They were only enslaved for at most one century, not centuries.

Even Manfred Bietak, who lead the excavation at Tell el-Daba', says the Hyksos were not expelled, but were enslaved:

“Avaris was conquered and partly abandoned by the 18th Dynasty,” around 1550 B.C., Bietak says. “Its people were not expelled, but distributed all over the country as slaves and soldiers.”

https://archaeology.org/issues/septembe ... n-dynasty/

Another confirmation with the Bible is when the Egyptians fought the Hyksos, the Hyksos aligned with the Nubians during the war.

According to contemporary inscriptions and Nubian pottery found in Avaris, the Hyksos seem to have forged an alliance with the Nubians, far to the south in what is now Sudan, in a vain attempt to crush Thebes from two sides.

https://archaeology.org/issues/septembe ... n-dynasty/

Exodus 1:10
Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and [so] get them up out of the land.

An indication of the numbers involved with the Hyksos is during the initial battle with the Egyptians:

Manetho, the same source who had described the Hyksos as invaders, claims Ahmose, the first New Kingdom pharaoh, marched on Avaris at the head of an army 480,000 men strong—yet still failed to take the city.

https://archaeology.org/issues/septembe ... n-dynasty/

If your army is almost half a million men and fail to take the city, how many in the military would be on the defensive side? One would think at least on the same order.

“The Hyksos came to represent a trauma for the Egyptians, a trauma so heartfelt the Egyptians were still writing about this in the third century B.C.,” Ryholt says. “It would be interesting to know why.”

https://archaeology.org/issues/septembe ... n-dynasty/

Given the Bible's account, we know why the Hyksos was so traumatic for the Egyptians.

[POI]

It makes little sense to conquer people in foreign lands and make them slaves in your own land while at the same time conquer foreigners in your own land and expel them to a distant land. Were the Pharaohs trying to be nice to the Hyksos? And what triggered the Egyptian mentality of having large scale chattel slavery at this point in history?

Ahmose I expelled the Hyksos before he died, which was 1527BCE.

Further, Ahmose I's actions towards the Hyksos and Nubians were driven by different motivations and were not necessarily contradictory. As stated, prior, Ahmose I expelled the Hyksos, who had ruled parts of Egypt for a significant period, to restore Egyptian rule and to unify the country. Alternatively, his campaign against the Nubians, while ultimately resulting in their subjugation/enslavement, was instead likely aimed at consolidating Egyptian power and securing its southern border. I say likely because we are referring to (ancient antiquity) after all.

that's why Manetho's story of the Hyksos twists the facts.

Great, then we can lump in his account with the Bible, in that they both provide "fake news". One motivated by avoidance of embarrassment, and the other -- (the Bible), motivated by self-fulfilling prophecy/etc. See below for further explanation...

what proof is there the Bible's account is fake?

All of "Google AI", no matter what question I ask, related to this topic, tells me the Hyksos were expelled and also not enslaved. I guess Google AI is all wrong, as it relates to anything regarding THIS topic Case/point:

AI: Is there evidence of the Hyksos being enslaved after their defeat?

"No, there is no evidence that the Hyksos were enslaved in Egypt. They were rulers, not slaves, and were eventually expelled by the Egyptians".....

AI: Is there evidence of the Nubians being enslaved after their defeat?

"Yes, there is extensive historical evidence indicating that Nubians were enslaved, particularly in ancient Egypt and later in other regions. Nubians were often captured as war captives and sold into slavery, with the practice continuing even during the medieval and modern periods"....

The take-away Q remains.... Why would the Hyksos leave no evidence while the Nubians left a lot?

They were only enslaved for at most one century, not centuries.

Hmm? That's not what Genesis 15:13 says. Oh well.... It matters not anyways, as the story is likely bogus to begin with...

****************************

At the end of the day, the Bible is not trustworthy. As stated prior, but merits repeating here again... EVEN IF the natural/physical events, as told by the Bible, aligned with later discovery, it would be no better than a Spiderman comic book, in that it gets the natural stuff right while still injecting the supernatural. This is why I brought up this topic, in that even the claimed natural parts are of major question.

Regardless of how much one wants to call into 'question', since we are dealing with ancient antiquity, the timeline still does not align, when compared to the Biblical account. This is why the Bible provides another shining example of "fake news".

Is it possible the Biblical author(s) were motivated by self-fulfilling Genesis prophecy, ala Gen. 15:13, as well as "borrowing" from other known events, and passing them off as their own -- (while adding a zesty lemon twist)?

[Clownboat]

Have you ever considered the possibility that you are denying the very obvious flaws in radiocarbon dating to maintain your own errant beliefs?

There actually was a time when I rejected all our dating methods. This is the time of my life (2 decades) when I was a born again, tongue talking, street evangelizing missionary to 3 countries.
Since that time, I have learned about our dating methods and amended my thinking on the matter.
I also rejected evolution at the time and have since learned what it really is and not the caricature my church/private school had claimed.

I have lived both sides and have a good understanding of where you are coming from. I understand the emotions that can be stirred up when someone's religious beliefs are questioned and I understand the defense mechanism that is then employed. For example: "You are just a Bible denier", or something on those lines.

In reality, such claims are just accusing a person of having some emotional reaction to the Bible instead of a rational criticism of it, like you do when I ask if you think we will ever find evidence.

We already have an entire world FILLED with evidence for millions that wandered in the wilderness of Sin and Sinai

I have been asking for this from the beginning! Please provide it if you find it valid as I would love to see it. Seriously, I really truly want to see it.

including the direct testimony from those who were there,

That would also be the evidence I'm looking for! Please provide it if you think it is actually valid.

and the prophecies from that same testimony which have come true in exact and minute detail thousands of years later.

I have studied Biblical prophecy (its been done here many times over the years as well) and have arrived at the conclusion that humans cannot and have never been able to predict what will happen in the future. I acknowledge that you believe humans have done this in the past though, but I beg you to understand that if this is truly the best you have, you have nothing worth considering unless you are at church, talking to fellow church members. (This is where you are to accuse me of being a God hater or Bible denier).

You sound much like I once did. If there was nope for me, there is hope for you...

[otseng]

Ahmose I expelled the Hyksos before he died, which was 1527BCE.

Archaeological evidence is against this:

Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a (Avaris), is one of the foremost experts on the Hyksos. He states that despite Manetho’s overly simplistic claim that the Hyksos were expelled to Canaan following their defeat in the mid-16th century b.c.e., there is no archaeological evidence for this. “[W]e have no evidence that the Western Asiatic population who carried the Hyksos rule in Egypt was expelled to the Levant,” he writes in his research article “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?” Instead, following their defeat, “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (emphasis added). Evidence of this can be found throughout Egypt, including an “uninterrupted” production of Hyksos-style pottery in the Eastern Delta, as well as a degree of continued worship of “Canaanite cults.”

https://armstronginstitute.org/835-the- ... ient-egypt

So, they were not immediately expelled after they were defeated.

Further, Ahmose I's actions towards the Hyksos and Nubians were driven by different motivations and were not necessarily contradictory. As stated, prior, Ahmose I expelled the Hyksos, who had ruled parts of Egypt for a significant period, to restore Egyptian rule and to unify the country.

And having slaves would jeopardize Egyptian rule and unifying the country? That doesn't make sense. It was only defeating the Hyksos that would restore Egyptian rule and unify the country. After that, the Egyptians had two choices - either enslave them or expel them. Given this was the time the Egyptians started mass chattel slavery, the former makes more sense.

Alternatively, his campaign against the Nubians, while ultimately resulting in their subjugation/enslavement, was instead likely aimed at consolidating Egyptian power and securing its southern border. I say likely because we are referring to (ancient antiquity) after all.

And if they enslaved the Nubians in the south, it would be more consistent if they also enslaved the Hyksos in the north.

that's why Manetho's story of the Hyksos twists the facts.

Great, then we can lump in his account with the Bible, in that they both provide "fake news". One motivated by avoidance of embarrassment, and the other -- (the Bible), motivated by self-fulfilling prophecy/etc.

That's one thing different about the Bible compared to other literature of that time (or even modern times). The Bible does not avoid revealing embarrassing things - Abraham lying, Lot's daughters and incest, Jacob's deceptions, David and Bathsheba, women being more honorable than men, Peter putting foot in mouth, conflict between Paul and Peter, etc.

what proof is there the Bible's account is fake?

All of "Google AI", no matter what question I ask, related to this topic, tells me the Hyksos were expelled and also not enslaved.

That's a claim, not proof, esp since you rarely even provide a link to the actual source. And as I've demonstrated before, when looking at the actual source, AI presented the source incorrectly. So even an AI summary can be fake news.

I guess Google AI is all wrong, as it relates to anything regarding THIS topic

Ultimately it's not what Google says that is the truth. It's not even what scholars claim. It might not even be what everyone in the world believes. But we have to base what we believe to be true on the evidence and logical reasoning. Simply reiterating what other people or machines claim is not necessarily the truth.

Why would the Hyksos leave no evidence while the Nubians left a lot?

The Nubians didn't leave it, it was the Egyptian historical records that left it. And the period of the Egyptians going through the period of humiliation by the Hyksos was systematically erased, or at least they tried to.

This period is particularly elusive in Egyptian annals. While several other king lists have survived (such as the Saqqara Tablet, the Abydos King List, the Karnak King List, the Medinet Habu King List and the Palermo Stone), only the Turin King List records Egypt’s rulers during this crucial and fascinating period. Later Egyptian pharaohs erased the history of this dynasty. “Even today, in particular, there are not found any Hyksos written texts, inscriptions and bas-reliefs, tombs, frescoes or sculptures,” wrote historian Evgenii Misetskii. “Everything that could somehow remind of the power of the Hyksos was destroyed in the country by order of the New Kingdom pharaohs” (“From Joseph to Moses: The Key Time of Interaction Between the Cultures of Egypt and Israel”).

https://armstronginstitute.org/878-did- ... e-in-egypt

At the end of the day, the Bible is not trustworthy. As stated prior, but merits repeating here again... EVEN IF the natural/physical events, as told by the Bible, aligned with later discovery, it would be no better than a Spiderman comic book, in that it gets the natural stuff right while still injecting the supernatural. This is why I brought up this topic, in that even the claimed natural parts are of major question.

And I've said before, it doesn't matter what evidence is produced to support the Bible, it will be automatically rejected by skeptics.

[POI]

Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a (Avaris), is one of the foremost experts on the Hyksos. He states that despite Manetho’s overly simplistic claim that the Hyksos were expelled to Canaan following their defeat in the mid-16th century b.c.e., there is no archaeological evidence for this. “[W]e have no evidence that the Western Asiatic population who carried the Hyksos rule in Egypt was expelled to the Levant,” he writes in his research article “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?” Instead, following their defeat, “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (emphasis added). Evidence of this can be found throughout Egypt, including an “uninterrupted” production of Hyksos-style pottery in the Eastern Delta, as well as a degree of continued worship of “Canaanite cults.”

"Hyksos-style" pottery was already being adopted and integrated by such neighboring tribes prior to Hyksos expulsion. The continuation of such styled pottery means nothing. In regard to a "historical account", an autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ibana, and a soldier under Ahmose I, describes the military campaigns, including the siege and capture of Avaris, the Hyksos capital, and the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt. In regard to archaeological evidence, excavations at Tel Habuwa, (believed to be ancient Tjaru), show destruction, such as burned buildings, dating to the late Second Intermediate Period, consistent with Ahmose I's campaigns and the Hyksos expulsion. And then there is the establishment of the New Kingdom. Ahmose I is credited with reunifying Egypt and initiating the New Kingdom period, which began after the Hyksos were removed.

So, they were not immediately expelled after they were defeated.

I never said 'immediate'. But before Ahmose I dies, in 1527 BCE, he expelled them.

And having slaves would jeopardize Egyptian rule and unifying the country? That doesn't make sense. It was only defeating the Hyksos that would restore Egyptian rule and unify the country. After that, the Egyptians had two choices - either enslave them or expel them. Given this was the time the Egyptians started mass chattel slavery, the former makes more sense.

The former is mere wishful thinking to support your necessary narrative. He wanted the Hyksos gone, as they were a ruling class. He had plenty of others to enslave.

Here's why Ahmose I likely chose expulsion over enslavement of the Hyksos:

1. Hyksos as Rulers, Not Slaves: The Hyksos were a foreign dynasty that ruled Lower Egypt for over a century. They were a ruling class with established power, not a population that could be easily enslaved. Attempting to enslave a former ruling group could have presented significant challenges and risks of resistance.

2. Focus on Unification and Stability: Ahmose I's primary goal was to reunite Egypt and restore native Egyptian rule after a period of foreign domination. Expelling the Hyksos and reclaiming the Nile Delta was crucial for achieving this unification. Engaging in a prolonged process of enslaving the Hyksos could have undermined the goal of quickly establishing stability and consolidating rule.

3. Potential for Continued Resistance: Even if subdued, a large population of enslaved Hyksos could have posed a continuous threat of rebellion or unrest within Egypt. Expelling them eliminated this potential for future conflicts and instability.

4. Historical Context and Practices: While slavery existed in ancient Egypt, the treatment of defeated rulers and their people varied. Expulsion was a common practice for removing unwanted groups or threats from a region, especially if they were viewed as a destabilizing force. In essence, Ahmose I's focus was on restoring Egyptian sovereignty, consolidating power, and preventing future threats. Expelling the Hyksos, while potentially harsh, likely served strategic objectives better than attempting to enslave a large and potentially resistant population of former rulers.

The Bible does not avoid revealing embarrassing things

I couldn't agree more... Like expecting folks to actually believe far-fetched given tales of legend and lore, such as the story of "the Exodus", as told by the author(s) of the Pentateuch.

Ultimately it's not what Google says that is the truth. It's not even what scholars claim. It might not even be what everyone in the world believes. But we have to base what we believe to be true on the evidence and logical reasoning. Simply reiterating what other people or machines claim is not necessarily the truth.

Then I guess the logical play for the Christian is to read the Bible and just assume it is right, in spite of there being no evidence to support millions being enslaved for centuries. And then, reach a "fork" in the road:

a) issue a Carl Sagan slogan as one's apologetic defense
b) find another tribe to link to the 'Israelites"

The Nubians didn't leave it, it was the Egyptian historical records that left it. And the period of the Egyptians going through the period of humiliation by the Hyksos was systematically erased, or at least they tried to.

Archaeological finds, such as fortresses and settlements in Nubia, indicate periods of Egyptian occupation and control, suggesting forced labor and resource extraction. But most were illiterate, so there is not much.

But even if what you stated above were true, we would have evidence of later tampering.