The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[Clownboat]

Does it seem particularly unreasonable, given the fact that it is highly unlikely anything could survive in a desert wilderness for over 3000 years, to ask for graves, skeletal remains, fire-pits, pottery etc.?

As shown, it is reasonable to expect to find such things. Do you think we ever will find such things in the Sinai specifically that will point to the exodus story as told in the Bible.
It seems that you ONLY have excuses.

Or is this merely the unreasonable stipulations placed upon evidence of the Exodus, by unreasonable people, so they can continue to ignore reason, common-sense and what has been found in support of the historical record of this journey found in the Books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy?

Once again you are just accusing me of having an emotional reaction to the Bible instead of a rational criticism of it.
If there is evidence that the exodus took place as told in the Bible, I would like to see it. Apparently you think that makes me unreasonable and that I ignore common sense. Your slander in place of offering evidence is noted. Do you think you will ever find evidence in the Sinai for the exodus as told in the Bible?

And further, if someone cannot be bothered to look at and study the actual evidence presented, instead throwing a tantrum that they weren't spoon-fed the information provided in videos and links that they could examine at their leisure, are they even capable of reasonable, rational thought?

Just one of those videos alone was 1 hour and 44 minutes long itself. How full of pride are you to think that you deserve that much of my time? All you have is excuses for why we don't find evidence of millions wandering the desert for decades as told in the Bible. Perhaps the exodus still happened, I don't claim it didn't, but your emotions are getting the best of you.

[A Freeman]

Excerpt below from:

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com ... ny-decades

After 30 years nothing would remain. The bones would be completely worn away. This article has an in-depth analysis:

J Forensic Sci 1989 May;34(3):607-16.
Decay Rates of Human Remains in an Arid Environment

It indicates that an exposed corpse would be mostly worn down to bone fragments with in 3 years:



As the figure indicates, after 3 years complete skeletal decomposition has already begun. After 30 years there would be nothing left.

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Reasonable question: Is it reasonable to assume that we would find skeletal remains after 3000 years, when forensic scientist estimate there would be nothing left of a skeleton in that type of environment after 30 years?

And yet we find what you claim we won't!

A scientific expedition has found a 33,000-year-old skeleton of an Egyptian, the oldest human relic ever found in this country. The Government-owned daily Al Ahram said that the bones were found in the Firan valley in the Sinai desert.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/21/worl ... of%20years.

The following excerpt is from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazlet_Khater

Nazlet Khater[1] is an archeological site located in Upper Egypt that has yielded evidence of early human culture and anatomically modern specimens dating to approximately thirty to fifty thousand years ago.

And what/where is "Upper Egypt"?

From the provided hyperlink in the Nazlet_Khater article, which goes to...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Egypt
...we find the following:

Upper Egypt (Arabic: صعيد مصر Ṣaʿīd Miṣr, shortened to الصعيد, Egyptian Arabic pronunciation: [es.sˤe.ˈʕiːd], locally: [es.sˤɑ.ˈʕiːd]; Coptic: ⲙⲁⲣⲏⲥ, romanized: Mares) is the southern portion of Egypt and is composed of the Nile River valley south of the delta and the 30th parallel N. It thus consists of the entire Nile River valley from Cairo south to Lake Nasser (formed by the Aswan High Dam).[2]

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So not a desert area at all; instead the exact opposite. These skeletal remains were literally found in the wettest part of Egypt: the Nile River valley in Africa; NOT on the Sinai peninsula in Asia.

Continuing from the "Upper Egypt" link above, we find the following:

Name

In ancient Egypt, Upper Egypt was known as tꜣ šmꜣw,[3] literally "the Land of Reeds" or "the Sedgeland", named for the sedges that grow there.[4]

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The number one corrupter of radiocarbon (carbon-14) dating is WATER, because the water prematurely washes out the radiation, making the tested specimens seem dramatically older than they really are. And no one knows exactly how much water any given sample has been exposed to, which makes the entire process nothing more than guesswork.

The following excerpt is from:

https://www.nature.com/articles/BMC2050-7445-1-24

The freshwater reservoir effect can result in anomalously old radiocarbon ages of samples from lakes and rivers. This includes the bones of people whose subsistence was based on freshwater fish, and pottery in which fish was cooked. Water rich in dissolved ancient calcium carbonates, commonly known as hard water, is the most common reason for the freshwater reservoir effect. It is therefore also called hardwater effect. Although it has been known for more than 60 years, it is still less well-recognized by archaeologists than the marine reservoir effect. The aim of this study is to examine the order of magnitude and degree of variability of the freshwater reservoir effect over short and long timescales. Radiocarbon dating of recent water samples, aquatic plants, and animals, shows that age differences of up to 2000 14C years can occur within one river. The freshwater reservoir effect has also implications for radiocarbon dating of Mesolithic pottery from inland sites of the Ertebølle culture in Northern Germany. The surprisingly old ages of the earliest pottery most probably are caused by a freshwater reservoir effect.

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Another admission from the inventor of radiocarbon-dating William Libby about the dating process, from:

https://armstronginstitute.org/716-an-o ... bon-dating -

Following his invention of the science, Willard Libby originally attempted to use this method to check against the accuracy of his raw radiocarbon data. In his 1960 Nobel Prize acceptance lecture, Libby highlighted the immediate issue his team came up against: the ambiguity of historical ages. “You read statements in books that such and such a society or archaeological site is 20,000 years old,” he said. “We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is about the time of the First Dynasty in Egypt [circa 3000 b.c.e.] that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.” (Still, there remains much debate even about the dating of this period.)

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If people want to make a god out of this pseudo-scientific nonsense, that's their prerogative. Just don't expect the rest of us to blindly accept this obvious garbage.

And a few additional questions about the blatant hypocrisy being exhibited here...

Where are all of the friends and family members of the "Nazlet Khater" skeleton that would have been living with him in the lush Nile river valley?

Where are the millions upon millions that lived in the Nile River valley 3000-4000 years ago, when Egypt ruled the entire known world? And why would anyone believe that this one skeleton somehow survived for tens of thousands of years, when millions from only 3000-4000 years ago didn't?

Who can honestly dispute that the "Nazlet Khater" skeleton may not have belonged to someone who only recently died and that this publicity stunt is nothing more than a testament to how wildly inaccurate radiocarbon dating really is?

One cannot drag a single skeleton out of the closet and then honestly claim they've "debunked" thousands of years of recorded history and eye-witness testimony.

THINK about it.

[otseng]

The 'Hyksos' were expelled from Egypt around 1535BCE.

Let's look at this more in depth.

The Hyksos ruled over Lower Egypt and the Nile Valley around 1650–1550 BCE, although the actual dates are unknown. They were expelled from Egypt around 1550 BCE.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/were-th ... d-in-egypt

Eventually, they waged war against the Hyksos and expelled their last king, from Egypt around 1550 BCE. The saga of the Hyksos was recorded by the Egyptian historian Manetho, a chief priest at the Temple of Ra in Heliopolis, in the 3rd century BCE. In his “History of Egypt,” Manetho described the Hyksos, their lowly origins in Asia, their invasion, their dominion over Egypt, their eventual expulsion, and their subsequent exile to Judea, where they established the city of Jerusalem and its temple.

https://efinne1540.wordpress.com/2023/0 ... he-hyksos/

This date of 1550 BC (or even 1535 BC) is not necessarily the date they were expelled, but the date of the end of the Hyksos rule.

The Second Intermediate Period of ancient Egyptian history lasted from around 1640 to 1550 B.C. and embraced Dynasties 14 to 17. During this time, the central government in Egypt once again collapsed and a group called the "Hyksos" rose to power, controlling much of northern Egypt.

https://africame.factsanddetails.com/ar ... -1046.html

The Second Intermediate Period dates from 1700 to 1550 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_In ... d_of_Egypt

Details of what happened to the Hyksos after the end of their reign is sparse from Egyptian records. Manetho claimed the Hyksos were expelled, but given Manetho incorrectly explained how the Hyksos entered Egypt, his reason of why they left Egypt is also suspect.

Quoting from Manetho's Aegyptiaca, Josephus states that when the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt, they founded Jerusalem (Contra Apion I.90).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

The Hyksos are well known from ancient texts, and their expulsion was recorded in later ancient Egyptian historical narratives. The third-century B.C.E. Egyptian historian Manetho–whose semi-accurate histories stand out as valuable resources for cataloging Egyptian kingship–wrote of the Hyksos’ violent entry into Egypt from the north, and the founding of their monumental capital at Avaris, a city associated with the famous excavations at Tell ed-Dab’a. After the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt, Manetho reports that they wandered the desert before establishing the city of Jerusalem.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... the-hyksos

Manetho acknowledges the Hyksos came from the Levant originally and eventually left and went back to the Levant and founded Jerusalem.

The Exodus occurred in 1446 BC. Most likely the Pharaoh of the Exodus was Amenhotep II according to the high chronology.

These sightings limit the date of Thutmose's accession to either 1504 or 1479 BC.[16] Thutmose died after 54 years of reign,[17] at which time Amenhotep would have acceded to the throne. Amenhotep's short coregency with his father would then move his accession two years and four months earlier,[7] dating his accession to either 1427 BC in the low chronology,[18] or in 1452 BC in the high chronology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenhotep_II

As usual, different resources provide different time frames for Amenhotep II's reign. While the Chronicle of the Pharaohs by Peter A. Clayton gives his reign lasting from 1453 until 1419 BC, The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt provides a reign between 1427 until 1400 BC.

https://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amenhotep2.htm

Thutmose IV succeeded Amenhotep II, however he was not the first born of Amenhotep II. Apparently Thutmose IV had an older brother that we know little about and died under unknown circumstances.

Thutmose IV was born to Amenhotep II and Tiaa, but was not actually the crown prince and Amenhotep II's chosen successor to the throne. Some scholars speculate that Thutmose ousted his older brother in order to usurp power and then commissioned the Dream Stele in order to justify his unexpected kingship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_IV

More on Amenhotep II:
viewtopic.php?p=1073946#p1073946

If the first born son was killed by the 10th plague, could that be why we know so little of his first born son?

Though Amenhotep II reigned for 26 years, he suddenly stopped his military pursuits in his ninth year. And after that, subsequent Pharaoh's had few military campaigns. Thutmose IV had one minor campaign and Amenhotep III had one. Even in the Amarna letters, vassal states requested Egypt for help against invaders, but they were not able to send help. What could explain the sudden decrease in military activity during Amenhotep II's reign and for several kings afterwards? If most of the military were destroyed during the Exodus, then it can easily explain it.

More on the fall of the military at:
viewtopic.php?p=1077895#p1077895

So, the timing of the fall of the Hyksos aligns well with the early dating of the Exodus. The Hyksos fell from power around 1550 BC. They were enslaved. Moses was born. When Moses was 80 years old, he led them out of Egypt in 1446 BC.

[POI]

This date of 1550 BC (or even 1535 BC) is not necessarily the date they were expelled

That's not what "Google" says:

The expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around 1535 BCE is supported by several sources. Ancient Egyptian historical narratives, including those written by Manetho and later historians like Josephus, document the event. Ahmose I, a Theban ruler, is credited with conquering Avaris, the Hyksos capital, and expelling the Hyksos from Egypt. Wall reliefs in Ahmose's funerary temple at Abydos and inscriptions from his generals also record this event. While some debate the exact extent of the expulsion, with some scholars suggesting a large-scale migration to the Levant, Egyptian documents generally depict a catastrophic departure of the Hyksos.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Ancient Egyptian Historical Narratives: Texts like those attributed to Manetho, a Hellenistic Egyptian historian, and later accounts by other historians, describe the Hyksos' expulsion and the establishment of the 18th dynasty by Ahmose.

Ahmose I's Reign: Ahmose I, the founder of the 18th Dynasty, is specifically credited with expelling the Hyksos, re-establishing Egyptian rule over the entire country.

Archaeological Evidence: Tomb inscriptions and wall reliefs in Ahmose's funerary temple at Abydos depict the conquest of Avaris and the expulsion of the Hyksos.

Debate about the Scale of Expulsion: While ancient texts describe a large-scale departure, some scholars, based on archaeological findings, argue that the Hyksos may have remained in Egypt, with some resettled in other locations.

Natural Disasters and Mass Flight: Egyptian sources link the Hyksos expulsion with natural disasters, which they attribute to a deity of the West Semites.
The 18th Dynasty:

Ahmose I's successful expulsion of the Hyksos led to the unification of Egypt and the establishment of the 18th Dynasty, the first dynasty of the New Kingdom.

[otseng]

The expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around 1535 BCE is supported by several sources

It doesn't make sense the Egyptians expelled the Hyksos after they were defeated by Ahmose I. Ahmose I was the first Pharaoh of the New Kingdom. And it was in the New Kingdom that the start of widespread chattel slavery started. Even the great pyramids of Egypt, built centuries earlier, were not built by slaves, but by paid workers.

It was a long-held belief in science that oppressed slaves built these pyramids and were subjected to horrible working conditions. However, a recent study found that most workers who built the pyramids were paid laborers, not slaves.

https://www.historydefined.net/what-was ... ent-egypt/

It was during the New Kingdom that mass chattel slavery from war prisoners in Egypt blossomed.

It seems that the slave population consisted of prisoners of war, usually foreigners. Dr. Cwiek mentions that the population of slave workers swelled during the Imperial Period (1550-1069 BC) due to several successful campaigns. These individuals would have been of Asian, Nubian, and Syro-Palestine descent.

https://www.historydefined.net/what-was ... ent-egypt/

During the New Kingdom period, the military and its expenses grew and so additional coerced labor was needed to sustain it. As such, the "New Kingdom, with its relentless military operations, is the epoch of large-scale foreign slavery".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Egypt

So, this contradicts Manetho's account that the Hyksos were expelled. It makes no sense to expel a huge number of defeated foes while at the same time they were greatly increasing in enslaving war prisoners.

Records show Ahmose I and Thutmose III enslaved people in large numbers.

The tomb of Ahmose I contains a biographical text which depicts several boasts regarding the capture of foreign Asiatic slaves. Egyptian servants were treated more humanely as employees, whereas foreign slaves were the objects of trade. The foreigners captured during military campaigns are, for example, referred to in the Annals of Thutmose III as "men in captivity" and individuals were referred to as "dependents" (mrj). In reward for his services in the construction of temples across Egypt, Thutmose III rewarded his official Minmose over 150 "dependents".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Egypt

What makes more sense is the Biblical account that the Israelites (Hyksos) were enslaved. Just as Manetho incorrectly explained why the Hyksos were able to enter Egypt, he incorrectly explained why they left.

[POI]

It doesn't make sense the Egyptians expelled the Hyksos after they were defeated by Ahmose I.

The expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around 1535 BCE is a well-documented event, supported by various pieces of evidence. One primary source is Ahmose I's Autobiography, a soldier who served under Ahmose and later kings, records the destruction of Avaris, the Hyksos capital, and their expulsion. Archaeological evidence from Tell el-Daba' indicates that a West Asian population continued to live there into the New Kingdom, suggesting a more complex picture than a complete expulsion. Additionally, the Autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ibana, and records that Ahmose I captured Sharuhen, a city possibly in Canaan, under Hyksos control, further supporting the expulsion.

Ahmose I's Autobiography: This account, written by a soldier who served under Ahmose I and later kings, provides a firsthand perspective on the events leading to the expulsion of the Hyksos. It details the destruction of Avaris and the eventual expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt.
.
Archaeological findings at Tell el-Daba' (Avaris) show that a West Asian population continued to reside there even after the Hyksos were allegedly expelled. This suggests that the expulsion may not have been a complete removal of the Hyksos, and that some may have remained in Egypt.
.
The capture of Sharuhen, possibly in Canaan, by Ahmose I indicates that the Hyksos were not only expelled from Egypt but also lost their control over territories outside of Egypt.

Archaeological Evidence: Archaeological discoveries in Egypt, particularly in the Eastern Delta, provide evidence of continued production of Hyksos-style pottery and the worship of Canaanite cults, suggesting that the Hyksos and their culture persisted in some form even after their expulsion.

Further, the Hyksos were not enslaved after their expulsion from Egypt. They were driven out by the Theban pharaoh Ahmose I, and while some Hyksos may have remained in Egypt, they were likely a subjugated class, not slaves.

While there's evidence of a West Asian population remaining in Egypt, they weren't enslaved in the biblical sense of the word. The biblical narrative of the Israelites being enslaved in Egypt is a separate event and context.

[otseng]

Ahmose I's Autobiography: This account, written by a soldier who served under Ahmose I and later kings, provides a firsthand perspective on the events leading to the expulsion of the Hyksos. It details the destruction of Avaris and the eventual expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt.

Instead of just posting what ChatGPT says, please cite the actual source. Here's the source and what it says:

Records of Kamose cease after his third regnal year, and his brother (or son) Ahmose took up the campaign. The Autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ibana, a soldier under Ahmose and later kings, records a destruction of Avaris and expulsion of the Hyksos. But no solid evidence supports such destruction.

https://arce.org/resource/hyksos/

As the source points out, there is no archaeological evidence for the destruction of Avaris.

Archaeological findings at Tell el-Daba' (Avaris) show that a West Asian population continued to reside there even after the Hyksos were allegedly expelled. This suggests that the expulsion may not have been a complete removal of the Hyksos, and that some may have remained in Egypt.

The source:

Instead, archaeological material at Tell el Dab’a indicates a West Asian population continued to live there into the New Kingdom, raising questions about how many people were actually expelled.

https://arce.org/resource/hyksos/

What is left out in your quote is "into the New Kingdom". Ahmose I defeated the Hyksos, but it was under Amenhotep II that they left. So, the Hyksos were still in Egypt for about 100 years into the New Kingdom. So, archaeological evidence shows they were not immediately expelled by Ahmose I.

Archaeological Evidence: Archaeological discoveries in Egypt, particularly in the Eastern Delta, provide evidence of continued production of Hyksos-style pottery and the worship of Canaanite cults, suggesting that the Hyksos and their culture persisted in some form even after their expulsion.

This would make more sense if the Hyksos willingly choose to leave Egypt rather than forcibly expelled from Egypt. Some of them could have decided to stay in Egypt, just like during the Babylonian captivity some Jews chose to remain in Babylon.

Further, the Hyksos were not enslaved after their expulsion from Egypt. They were driven out by the Theban pharaoh Ahmose I, and while some Hyksos may have remained in Egypt, they were likely a subjugated class, not slaves.

This makes no sense if the Hyksos were conquered by a war. Again, I pointed out it was during the reign of Ahmose I is when we see the rise of mass chattel slavery. But if the God of Israel was shown victorious over the gods of Egypt, then any who chose to remain in Egypt would not be as a status of slaves.

Again, the Egyptians are known to revise their history, so we cannot blindly accept everything they claim. One thing there is agreement on is the Hyksos did leave Egypt and resettled back into the Levant region. The question is were they immediately expelled or were they enslaved and then left after plundering Egypt? All evidence points to the latter.

[POI]

Instead of just posting what ChatGPT says, please cite the actual source.

I'm not using "ChatGPT", I'm simply 'Googling' in basic questions. Remember what I told you a few responses ago... If the search result does not already align with your necessary and required position, you'll likely persist with other source(s) until you find a necessary and required source which does align with your position. Which is why it takes you much longer to come up with what you came up with... Further, if my findings instead aligned with yours, you would likely not persist or question the source(s).

The Hyksos were expelled from Egypt around 1500BCE, and, the Hyksos were not enslaved. Right here, we can already effectively rule the 'Hyksos' out as a viable candidate. This is why there is instead many replies from other Christians arguing for Carl Sagan's slogan. Which is, "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

As I stated prior, I take your position about as seriously as I take the Mormon's position, where they attempt to "shoehorn" in the native Americans as being the lost Israelites. A simple "google" search states otherwise. No longer are the days where it takes much time to find many answers. Alternatively, if we do not get the answers we want, we can still take much time to find desired ones. This holds relevant for evolution deniers, flat earthers, Biblical literalists, literal Exodus believers, global flood believers, young earther creationists, etc etc etc........

the (Egyptians) are known to revise their history, so we cannot blindly accept everything they claim.

I find this statement ironic, being the skeptic can simply replace the word in (brackets) with the word (Israelites). It's fair to say the OT is one of the OG's of 'fake news'.

Again, no one (believers included), is coming to your aid. The readers have decided, and your position carries little to no weight.

[otseng]

I'm not using "ChatGPT", I'm simply 'Googling' in basic questions.

I'm using the term ChatGPT synonymously with AI. Google is summarizing it with AI responses. What I'm asking for is to provide a link to the source of the claim so that anyone can verify what was said.

Remember what I told you a few responses ago... If the search result does not already align with your necessary and required position, you'll likely persist with other source(s) until you find a necessary and required source which does align with your position.

You're repeating yourself. But here's what we see, I've been providing sources to back up my position. Whereas you have yet to provide a link to any of your sources. And even worse, AI is citing claims that is the opposite of what the source is claiming as I pointed out earlier:

Ahmose I's Autobiography: This account, written by a soldier who served under Ahmose I and later kings, provides a firsthand perspective on the events leading to the expulsion of the Hyksos. It details the destruction of Avaris and the eventual expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt.

Here's the source and what it says:

Records of Kamose cease after his third regnal year, and his brother (or son) Ahmose took up the campaign. The Autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ibana, a soldier under Ahmose and later kings, records a destruction of Avaris and expulsion of the Hyksos. But no solid evidence supports such destruction.

https://arce.org/resource/hyksos/

As the source points out, there is no archaeological evidence for the destruction of Avaris.

Which is why it takes you much longer to come up with what you came up with... Further, if my findings instead aligned with yours, you would likely not persist or question the source(s).

Actually I see the opposite. I'm putting in the work of researching and going to the sources and citing them. You're simply using Google and copying the summaries without even going to the actual source and reading them and posting the link to the source.

The Hyksos were expelled from Egypt around 1500BCE, and, the Hyksos were not enslaved.

I've already explained why this makes no sense. Please address why it was during the reign of Ahmose I that wide scale chattel slavery rose and yet if he conquered the Hyksos, he expelled them instead of enslaved them. It's not like they viewed them favorably either since all records of them malign them. Further, the Hyksos explains the sudden rise of large scale slavery during his reign. During the entire history of Egypt, there was no evidence of any large scale chattel slavery prior. And yet at this point in history, we have evidence of it. What would cause such a shift? With the Bible, we have an event that easily explains it.

Which is, "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I have no idea what you mean here. It is you that is not providing the actual source for your claims, not me.

we can still take much time to find desired ones.

And it's taking quite a long time for you to answer the initial six questions:

Here's a significant piece of evidence the Israelites were in Egypt - the Hyksos.

Whatever explanation that can explain these things is more likely to be true:
1. Who were the Hyksos?
2. How were they able to reside in Egypt?
3. Why were they able to take the best land?
4. Why did the Egyptians tolerate them for so long?
5. Were the Hyksos ever enslaved?
6. What happened to the Hyksos and how did they leave Egypt?

Give me your answers and then I'll give mine. Then we'll compare and see which explanation is more reasonable.

[Hawkins]

Apparently the OP doesn't know how reality operates. Do all US election happened as claimed? What evidence shows, say, the first 5 president elections did occur? Any 'outside US' documents mentioned the details such as vote counts (any who ever verified the vote count claims being true)?

Did Confucius in China ever exist? Any "outside of China" document mentioned so? Did Confucius ever wrote any books? What proof is that those claimed books are actually written by Confucius?