Romans 13, Dumbest Passage in the New Testament?

[Danmark]

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.

Yes, there are many candidates for 'Dumbest Passage in the New Testament,' but this is my nominee. Worse than the passage is the intellectual dishonesty of those who only trot it out when their political favorite is in office and making a jackass out of him or herself.

Like dross rising to the surface of molten metal, this impurity emerges only when YOUR guy gets elected. I've seen this bit of rubbish frequently published by 'Christians,' since Trump got elected. I don't recall anyone reminding us of Romans 13 when Obama was President.

[placebofactor]

Before I respond, I need to understand your position on what you would consider the limits of men

Would you accept?: Men can do things that are possible if they have the technology/ability to do so.

and if there is a God, God himself.

If there are Gods, I would not presume to know their limits. I also do not presume to know the limits of dragons and unicorns. I try to be consistent.

Let me begin with this, "Do you think any man can forecast future events accurately, let's say 100 to 1000 years in advance?

From the standpoint of 'learn your history or you are doomed to repeat it', sure. From that standpoint that humans can prophecy future events, no, that is not something humans have ever demonstrated an ability to do.

Congrats on distracting away from the observation that you were unable to show that you speak the truth about 'All Scripture being inspired of God'.
Asking questions in place of addressing asked questions is a common dodge we see here quite often.

Be well.

For the readers...
If I wanted to get you to believe in Santa Clause, would it help or hinder your ability to believe if I also required you to believe in flying reindeer and that there are elves that live in the North Pole that make all the toys?

I ask because here the claim was that all scripture is inspired by a God.
The baggage that comes along with this claim here was:
- We must believe that Moses wrote the Torah. Something we don't know and something most scholars see reasons to reject.
- That each book has been documented by thousands of witnesses and by history. Not exactly sure what this means and no clarification was provided upon request.
- The Bible books can be traced back over 3500 years. News to me!
- Archaeology is finally catching up with biblical history. (I don't deny that there is history in the Bible, but to assume archaeology if finally catching up is a bit much).
- Humans could at one time prophecy the future.
- And finally... all this is real evidence. "to deny real evidence is foolish at best."

Don't be so suspicious: I will answer your question in a timely manner. MY questions were honest, I needed to know how you stood on the idea of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge meaning to know things years, if not centuries, before they occur. I'm not speaking about almost correct, but 100 % correct every time. One more important question, in your estimation, how old do you think the Old Testament is? I need to have this info to answer your question. And how old do you believe the New Testament is?

As far as, who wrote the O.T., let's say we have no idea who wrote the Old Testament. It really makes no difference, because the person or persons who put their pens to the paper wrote what they were told, not what they knew.

Whoever told these penmen what to write had to be present or have a record of past events 5000 years ago. Example: let's say the Old Testament is 3500 years old. Herein lies your dilemma; There is enough history in the O.T. that dates back at least another 1500 years. No man 3500 years ago could have known and then penned the unique details of ancient history 1500 years earlier without being present or having a record of these past events.

[Clownboat]

Don't be so suspicious: I will answer your question in a timely manner. MY questions were honest, I needed to know how you stood on the idea of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge meaning to know things years, if not centuries, before they occur. I'm not speaking about almost correct, but 100 % correct every time. One more important question, in your estimation, how old do you think the Old Testament is? I need to have this info to answer your question. And how old do you believe the New Testament is?

What does this have to do with the claim you made about 'All Scripture being inspired of God'? From where I sit, you are still dodging this question by asking me irrelevant questions.
Either way, in hopes of fostering debate:
What we consider to be the Old Testament was likely compiled in the 3rd century BC.
Councils and church leaders decided which books were to be included in what we call the New Testament late in the 4th century.

As far as, who wrote the O.T., let's say we have no idea who wrote the Old Testament. It really makes no difference, because the person or persons who put their pens to the paper wrote what they were told, not what they knew.

To the bold, how is it that you came about this information and can you show that you speak the truth?
I ask because stories are normally written without anyone telling the author what to write, yet you assert that this is what happened. It's not logical that we don't know who wrote something and to then go on to assert that someone else told them what to write.

Whoever told these penmen what to write had to be present or have a record of past events 5000 years ago.

Please show that you speak the truth and also kindly inform me as to who told Muhammed what to write in the Quran if such a thing is actually a requirement. The same could be asked about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon by the way.

Example: let's say the Old Testament is 3500 years old.

It's not, so let's not say this.

Herein lies your dilemma; There is enough history in the O.T. that dates back at least another 1500 years. No man 3500 years ago could have known and then penned the unique details of ancient history 1500 years earlier without being present or having a record of these past events.

It's a false dilemma. To demonstrate the truth of this, I could right now pen a story about how our solar system was created by pixies 10,000 years ago. This in fact would not require the knowledge of any unique details from 10,000 years ago.
To further check for consistency, who told the writers of the Bhagavad Gita that the universe begins with Lord Vishnu, who, while sleeping on the cosmic serpent Sesha, produces a lotus flower from his navel? Who told them that Brahma, the creator god, was born on the lotus and began the process of creating the world from the materials provided by Vishnu? Since this story exists, that must mean that someone had unique details from back when this took place, right?

Out of curiosity, who do you believe told the author to write this?:
Numbers 31:17–18 — New International Version (2011) (NIV)
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
I'm curious, did the author have a thing for virgin girls, or the person that told the author to write it down?

(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.
Again... curious. Did the author find it ok to own other humans as property, or the person that told the author to write this down?

If a god truly inspired all scripture, shame on it for being vile! Unless it is I that is mistaken and genocide, slavery and taking virgin girls as spoils of war (suggesting rape) is not vile?

I await your answers.

[placebofactor]

Don't be so suspicious: I will answer your question in a timely manner. MY questions were honest, I needed to know how you stood on the idea of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge meaning to know things years, if not centuries, before they occur. I'm not speaking about almost correct, but 100 % correct every time. One more important question, in your estimation, how old do you think the Old Testament is? I need to have this info to answer your question. And how old do you believe the New Testament is?

What does this have to do with the claim you made about 'All Scripture being inspired of God'? From where I sit, you are still dodging this question by asking me irrelevant questions.
Either way, in hopes of fostering debate:
What we consider to be the Old Testament was likely compiled in the 3rd century BC.
Councils and church leaders decided which books were to be included in what we call the New Testament late in the 4th century.

As far as, who wrote the O.T., let's say we have no idea who wrote the Old Testament. It really makes no difference, because the person or persons who put their pens to the paper wrote what they were told, not what they knew.

To the bold, how is it that you came about this information and can you show that you speak the truth?
I ask because stories are normally written without anyone telling the author what to write, yet you assert that this is what happened. It's not logical that we don't know who wrote something and to then go on to assert that someone else told them what to write.

Whoever told these penmen what to write had to be present or have a record of past events 5000 years ago.

Please show that you speak the truth and also kindly inform me as to who told Muhammed what to write in the Quran if such a thing is actually a requirement. The same could be asked about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon by the way.

Example: let's say the Old Testament is 3500 years old.

It's not, so let's not say this.

Herein lies your dilemma; There is enough history in the O.T. that dates back at least another 1500 years. No man 3500 years ago could have known and then penned the unique details of ancient history 1500 years earlier without being present or having a record of these past events.

It's a false dilemma. To demonstrate the truth of this, I could right now pen a story about how our solar system was created by pixies 10,000 years ago. This in fact would not require the knowledge of any unique details from 10,000 years ago.

You wouldn't sell many books!

To further check for consistency, who told the writers of the Bhagavad Gita that the universe begins with Lord Vishnu, who, while sleeping on the cosmic serpent Sesha, produces a lotus flower from his navel? Who told them that Brahma, the creator god, was born on the lotus and began the process of creating the world from the materials provided by Vishnu? Since this story exists, that must mean that someone had unique details from back when this took place, right?

Some Jerk doing drugs!

Out of curiosity, who do you believe told the author to write this?:
Numbers 31:17–18 — New International Version (2011) (NIV)
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

It was the LORD: All corruption, then and now has to be dealt with. The difference then and now, the LORD dealt with the Jews face to face. Today he deals with all of us through his Word. Dismiss the word, die the second death.

I'm curious, did the author have a thing for virgin girls, or the person that told the author to write it down?

No comment! Dumb question.

(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.
Again... curious. Did the author find it ok to own other humans as property, or the person that told the author to write this down?

Slavery may not be the culture today, but 4000 years ago, slavery was a large part of the culture. Please note, these bondsmen and bondswomen in Leviticus were purchased. Also, the Jews were commanded by God not to mistreat their servants.

You wrote, "If a god truly inspired all scripture, shame on it for being vile!"

Maybe you haven't noticed, life is vile, men cause the problems, not God. One more thing, I don't worship a god, I worship "God."

You wrote, "Unless it is I that is mistaken and genocide, slavery and taking virgin girls as spoils of war (suggesting rape) is not vile?"

Today, like the Jews of yesteryear, who killed their enemies, you say were vile. Were we vile to wipe out the Imperial forces of Japan and Germany, then occupy then for a short time govern their people and their leaders? We killed millions of Germans and Japanese, but in self-defense. They murdered for power, wealth, and because they were brutal and without compassion for human life. What they received, they deserved. I try to figure people like you out, but your points of view appear to have a lopsided slant to them.

Now take me, I'm a peaceful man. I would help anyone, even a person I don't like. Why, because I respect people. But, if someone attempts to hurt my friends or neighbors, or breaks into my home, or a gang attacks a stranger, I will do whatever is necessary to protect to help, and defend; that's in my DNA, I don't know about you. I hope you're not one of these people if one day you see someone needing help, instead of helping, you take out your phone, take pictures of the person, and then move on. Then sell it to the networks for a profit. That's the youth today, for the most part, separated from God.

[Clownboat]

You wouldn't sell many books!

Me selling the books or not makes no difference. Your claim was wrong and that was shown by my book scenario. You failed to address that and instead comment about book sales.

To further check for consistency, who told the writers of the Bhagavad Gita that the universe begins with Lord Vishnu, who, while sleeping on the cosmic serpent Sesha, produces a lotus flower from his navel? Who told them that Brahma, the creator god, was born on the lotus and began the process of creating the world from the materials provided by Vishnu? Since this story exists, that must mean that someone had unique details from back when this took place, right?

Some Jerk doing drugs!

The same jerk where we get talking snakes, donkeys, a man living in a fish for days or saints getting out of their graves and walking Jerusalem. That same jerk or a different one?

The difference then and now, the LORD dealt with the Jews face to face.

Sorry, but I have read the Bible. Perhaps you are less familiar with it?
Exodus 33:20
New International Version
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Today he deals with all of us through his Word. Dismiss the word, die the second death.

I'm sorry, but it has been shown that you cannot be trusted.

I'm curious, did the author have a thing for virgin girls, or the person that told the author to write it down?

No comment! Dumb question.

To correct you, your response would have been dumb. The questions stands.

Slavery may not be the culture today, but 4000 years ago, slavery was a large part of the culture. Please note, these bondsmen and bondswomen in Leviticus were purchased. Also, the Jews were commanded by God not to mistreat their servants.

Your attempt to justify slavery, the type I mentioned where you can pass them on to your children as property, is found appalling. I do not respect it, nor will I support owning other humans as slaves and neither should you.

You wrote, "If a god truly inspired all scripture, shame on it for being vile!"

Maybe you haven't noticed, life is vile, men cause the problems, not God.

False. Your god concept was ok with owning humans as property and this is vile.
Your god concept ordered the genocide and rape in Numbers and that is vile.
Shame on you for blaming men for the orders that others claimed your god concept made.

One more thing, I don't worship a god, I worship "God."

This is only true when you are in your specific church.
Go to a temple or synagogue for example and you will learn the truth of my words.
You worship one out of many of our available god concepts. These words may be an affront to you, but they are true words.

Were we vile to wipe out the Imperial forces of Japan and Germany, then occupy then for a short time govern their people and their leaders?

Someone needs to learn the difference between ordered genocide, "kill everyone, except for the virgin girls... those you can keep for yourself" and countries at war.
You would only have a point if Roosevelt told our solders to kill everyone, except for the virgin girls. I'm glad that Roosevelt didn't order that which your god concepts is claimed to have ordered.

What they received, they deserved.

You will not convince me that genocide and rape are deserved. Sorry.

I try to figure people like you out, but your points of view appear to have a lopsided slant to them.

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates

Now take me, I'm a peaceful man. I would help anyone, even a person I don't like. Why, because I respect people.

You may be peaceful, but I do not respect you for defending slavery or genocide. Such things are evil, even if read in religious promotional material.

But, if someone attempts to hurt my friends or neighbors, or breaks into my home, or a gang attacks a stranger, I will do whatever is necessary to protect to help, and defend; that's in my DNA, I don't know about you.

I would do the same, but more importantly, if you were to try to sell another human, I would fight you. If you were committing genocide, I would fight you. If you were taking virgin girls as the spoils of war, I would fight you. Sadly, if you felt a god concept ordered such, I fear you would be willing to commit said atrocities because you defend them here.

I hope you're not one of these people if one day you see someone needing help, instead of helping, you take out your phone, take pictures of the person, and then move on. Then sell it to the networks for a profit. That's the youth today, for the most part, separated from God.

This would not be me.

[A Freeman]

Romans 13:1-4
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power except of God: the powers that be are ordained by God.
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The passage above from Romans 13 is one of the most misunderstood and misused passages in the Bible.

It has been used and abused by governments, including the Nazi government under Adolf Hitler, to pretend that God granted them the right to do whatever evil they want to the people which, of course God NEVER did. And similarly, Romans 13 has been used by the mind-numbed people, as alleged justification either for their apathy toward our civic duties to ensure liberty and justice for all, or in support of their favourite politician.

All this proves is that people have never understood what Romans 13 is actually saying.

The HIGHEST Power is very obviously God; hence His Title as THE MOST HIGH. There is no power except of God.

The ONLY Law on this planet is the one that He gave us, found in the first five books of the Bible, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Under God's Law, all man-made legislation is expressly prohibited upon pain of death (Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:8, 12:32, 17:11-13). That's why Christ, while here in the body of Jesus, routinely chastized the scribes (lawyers) and the pharisees (politicians), and the money-changers (banksters) who financed the evil lawyers and politicians.

If someone does good, according to God's Law, then they should be praised for doing so. If someone does evil, then should be dealt with according to God's Law. It's that simple. If everyone was doing good, then we could throw a "mountain" (government) into the "sea" (the people), i.e. there would no longer be any governments.

It has been correctly stated: "people get the exact government they deserve". That is exactly what the line "the powers that be are ordained by God" is saying, and that's all it is saying. Read 1 Samuel 8:4-22, written ~3000 years ago.

We've been warned for thousands of years that our political, religious and business leaders, etc. are leading us astray, and ultimately to our destruction, and people still go out and vote for these people. One such as example, from Isaiah, also written ~3000 years ago:

Isaiah 3:12 [As for] My people, children [are] their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, they which lead thee cause [thee] to err, and lead thee astray, TO THY DESTRUCTION.

Voting is held for public amusement, to provide people with the ILLUSION of choice, while maintaining the satanic divide and conquer strategy. If someone has been duped into believing they are "voting for the leader of the free-world", then they obviously don't know what the word "free" means and are getting exactly what they deserve.

The same people that pretend Romans 13 somehow gives corporate fictional governments the carte blanche authority to do whatever evil they wish are the same people that mistakenly believe Jesus told everyone to pay taxes to these evil people which, of course, is likewise proof they didn't understand that passage either.