an Easter question

[Athetotheist]

If temple sacrifices were supposed to end with Jesus as the Messiah being the final and ultimate sacrifice, why does Ezekiel chapter 45 have sacrifices being reinstituted in the messianic age?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #10]

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be The Prince's part [to give] burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the Sabbaths, in all solemnities of the "House of Israel": he shall prepare the sin offering*

*John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Then why does that same prince prepare----for the people and for himself----a bull for a sin offering in Ezekiel 45:22? And seven kid-goats [one a day for seven days] as a sin offering in verse 23?


These sacrifices are detailed in the writings of the Jews, so let's ask them about it:
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... -sacrifice

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... ion-of-sin

[gadfly]

If temple sacrifices were supposed to end with Jesus as the Messiah being the final and ultimate sacrifice, why does Ezekiel chapter 45 have sacrifices being reinstituted in the messianic age?

Another victim of American fundamentalism.

American fundamentalists are so loud and obnoxious that everyone thinks they represent Christianity. Thus they insist that the Bible is an inerrant systematic book intended to make a confined number of propositions that you have to believe to "go to heaven".

This is untrue. American fundamentalists do not represent Christianity.

Ezekiel was a man. Given his context, the notion of worship without sacrifice was inconceivable (and unwanted--that was when one got to eat meat!). If one could go back in time and tell Ezekiel all about Jesus and his death and resurrection (a concept that may have been new to Ezekiel) he may have torn his robes and cried out "heretic".

(I do wonder sometimes how many of the prophets would have been scandalized by Christianity, lol).

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #4]

There are also other reasons for sacrifices. they can be for example thanksgiving offerings.

Then it shall be the prince’s part to give burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the New Moons, the Sabbaths, and at all the appointed seasons of the house of Israel. He shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.
(Ezekiel 45:17)

Why do you think that is in Messianic age?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #4]

There are also other reasons for sacrifices. they can be for example thanksgiving offerings.

Then it shall be the prince’s part to give burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the New Moons, the Sabbaths, and at all the appointed seasons of the house of Israel. He shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.
(Ezekiel 45:17)

Why do you think that is in Messianic age?

See post #6.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #11]

Athetotheist: Then why does that same prince prepare----for the people and for himself----a bull for a sin offering in Ezekiel 45:22? And seven kid-goats [one a day for seven days] as a sin offering in verse 23?

-------

According to the "fig-tree" prophecy about Christ's Second Coming, the new body (from Joseph-Ephraim - Gen. 49:10; 22-24) with a new name (Rev. 2:17; 3:12; 19:12) that Christ will use/incarnate during these end-times, was born on the exact day that the announcement first went out to the world that the Jewish state of Israel in the Middle East would be established ("put forth new shoots/leaves" - see: Matt. 24:32-34).

The first announcement to the world that the Jewish state would be established on May 14, 1948, went out 22 days earlier, when Haifa fell, on April 22, 1948.

On that day the sun was in the constellation of Taurus (the Bull).

So the bull for a sin offering is foreshadowing the SECOND Coming of Christ, right before Judgement Day. The young bull without blemish is specifically sacrificed for the soul that sins in ignorance (Lev. 4:1-21), which applies to all of us.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of Man cometh*, shall he find Faith on the Earth?

*right before Judgement Day (Mal. 4), to explain to the ignorant and unenlightened (Ps. 2:8) "the mystery of God" (Rev. 10:6-10).

Please also see: Daniel’s 70 Weeks Correctly Explained At Last, which includes timelines for the prophecies concerning The Messiah/Christ during His visit in the body of Jesus, and presently, in the body of Eli-JAH.

With regard to Ezekiel 45:23, it tells us that it will be seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish offered daily for the seven days, along with one kid goat (not seven).

Ezekiel 45:23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the "I AM", seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily [for] a sin offering.

Note: Seven is God’s number of completeness. There are seven days in a complete week, seven seals to completely seal “the Book” (Dan. 12:4; Rev. 5:1-9), seven angels given seven trumpets (Rev. 8:2) to complete the grace period we’ve been given to repent, seven stars, seven golden candlesticks (Rev. 1:20), seven lamps (Rev. 4:5), seven thunders, seven golden vials (Rev. 15:7), etc.

So seven bulls (bullocks) and seven rams were prophetically foreshadowing and signifying that Christ's Mission and all of His Sacrifices, both in the body of Jesus [Jesus, the Lamb of God, was born on the Passover which occurred on April 12, 7 B.C., when the sun was in the constellation of Aries (the Ram)], and now, in the body of JAH, will be completed, exactly as prophesied.

The kid goat being sacrificed is representative of those of us who have childishly "played the goat", but have now been awakened, are willing to sacrifice our "selves" to repent of our sins/crimes, and will hopefully no longer be counted among the goats on Judgement Day.

Matthew 25:31-46
25:31 When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the Holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the Throne of his glory:
25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand (John 10:1-18), but the goats on the left.
25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit The Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into Everlasting Fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (YOU that do not DO God's Will):
25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into Life Eternal.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #15]

According to the "fig-tree" prophecy about Christ's Second Coming, the new body (from Joseph-Ephraim - Gen. 49:10; 22-24) with a new name (Rev. 2:17; 3:12; 19:12) that Christ will use/incarnate during these end-times, was born on the exact day that the announcement first went out to the world that the Jewish state of Israel in the Middle East would be established ("put forth new shoots/leaves" - see: Matt. 24:32-34).

The first announcement to the world that the Jewish state would be established on May 14, 1948, went out 22 days earlier, when Haifa fell, on April 22, 1948.

On that day the sun was in the constellation of Taurus (the Bull).

So the bull for a sin offering is foreshadowing the SECOND Coming of Christ, right before Judgement Day. The young bull without blemish is specifically sacrificed for the soul that sins in ignorance (Lev. 4:1-21), which applies to all of us.

So, since there's no way to reconcile a sinless Christ with Ezekiel's presentation of a messianic prince who offers animal sacrifices for his own sin, you have to cherrypick references to similar images to cobble together what looks vaguely like a cohesive prophetic narrative.


"And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin-offering and put it on the doorpost of the House, and on the four corners of the ledge of the altar and on the doorpost of the gate of the Inner Court. And so shall you do on seven [days] in the month, because of mistaken and simple-minded men* [those with cognitive impairments], and expiate the House."
(Ezekiel 45:19-20)
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16143

If Jesus offered himself "once, for all" (Hebrews 9:25), why is this application of blood to be repeated for specific groups for seven days? And again, why is the "sinless" Messiah offering animals for himself as well as for the people?


*(This is clearly a subgroup, distinctive from "all the people" in Ezekiel 45:22.)

[A Freeman]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #16]

Athetotheist: So, since there's no way to reconcile a sinless Christ with Ezekiel's presentation of a messianic prince who offers animal sacrifices for his own sin, you have to cherrypick references to similar images to cobble together what looks vaguely like a cohesive prophetic narrative.

???

What are you talking about? Do you not understand what the word FORESHADOWING means please?

God asked Abraham to sacrifice his miracle son Isaac -- whom Abraham waited until he was 100 years old for, and dearly loved -- to FORESHADOW God offering His "Miracle" Son ~2000 years later.

And just as Abraham was stopped from killing Isaac, God provided a RAM to be sacrificed instead of Isaac (Gen. 22:13), FORESHADOWING the sacrifice of Jesus, the (male) "Lamb of God" (i.e. a RAM), for Isaac's descendants, through Jacob/Israel.

The substitute animal sacrifices in The Law also FORESHADOW "self" sacrifice, i.e. learning to sacrifice one's ego and the temptations of the flesh/human every day, as exemplified by the crucifixion. Substitute animal sacrifice therefore ended at the cross. The ONLY animal that is to be sacrificed now is the human, with its desires and its ego (the "self"). And that should be done DAILY (i.e. every single day all day long, until the ego/"self" is dead, i.e. no longer in control).

It therefore should be self-evident that FORESHADOWING is a cohesive, prophetic narrative that we find throughout Scripture, so that people can see God in action and wonder in awe at the amazing lessons and planning that went into events sometimes hundreds and even thousands of years apart. He is The BEST Planner.

Please take the time to read and actually study what's been shared, including the references. It wasn't shared to impress, only to answer your questions.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #17]

God asked Abraham to sacrifice his miracle son Isaac -- whom Abraham waited until he was 100 years old for, and dearly loved -- to FORESHADOW God offering His "Miracle" Son ~2000 years later.

What you're taking as "foreshadowing" is actually circular reasoning. You're starting with the Christian claim and trying to read it into the text of the Jewish Bible.

And just as Abraham was stopped from killing Isaac, God provided a RAM to be sacrificed instead of Isaac (Gen. 22:13), FORESHADOWING the sacrifice of Jesus, the (male) "Lamb of God" (i.e. a RAM), for Isaac's descendants, through Jacob/Israel.

It would be hard for this to be "foreshadowing", since lambs were not offered for sin in the Jewish sacrificial system (they were sacrificed to commemorate Hebrew homes in Egypt being passed over by the angel of death). The sins of the people were ceremonially placed onto the head of a goat which was then sent into the wilderness, and Jesus is never referred to as "the Goat of God".


If the animal sacrifices in Ezekiel are all just fuzzy symbolism, why does the text give exact numbers of those animals to be sacrificed?


John claims that Jesus having none of his bones broken (19:36) is fulfillment of a sacrificial requirement, but other requirements are ignored:

Jesus was human. Human sacrifice was forbidden.

Jesus was beaten and scourged. The sacrifice was supposed to be without blemish.

The blood of Jesus wasn't poured over the altar in the temple.

Jesus died of asphyxiation. The sacrifice was supposed to die from bloodletting (hence, blood atonement).

For numerous reasons, Jesus didn't qualify as a sacrifice for sin.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #4]

There are also other reasons for sacrifices. they can be for example thanksgiving offerings.

Then it shall be the prince’s part to give burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the New Moons, the Sabbaths, and at all the appointed seasons of the house of Israel. He shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering, and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.
(Ezekiel 45:17)

Why do you think that is in Messianic age?

See post #6.

Sorry, I don't see how that answers the question.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #19]

Why do you think that is in Messianic age?

See post #6.

Sorry, I don't see how that answers the question.

The things described in Ezekiel didn't go on in a previous period, so they have to happen in the future if they're to happen at all.