Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

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Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #251

Post by Realworldjack »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

I realize this is a very old post, but I would like to respond to it.
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both.
Yes, I can see this. In other words, it is a fact that most children are taught to accept what they are taught in Church uncritically, and when they become of age they may well recognize this to be the case, and it could indeed cause these folks to respond in the ways in which you described.

On the other hand, I was brought up in the Church, and decided to be baptized at the age of eleven, but by the time I was of age I decided that I was no longer interested in religion in the least, and by the age of 19 I no longer attended Church. I was not embarrassed, I was not angry, I simply was not interested.
'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'


I agree with this 100 percent. In fact, I will go on to say, the overwhelming majority of Christians I know, do not really know what it is they believe, nor why they believe it. My question is what is the point?
In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.
I not only will not argue against what is said above, I will be glad to acknowledge it. The question is what does one imagine this demonstrates, other than most folks do not think critically about what they were taught as a child?

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #252

Post by Clownboat »

SiNcE_1985 wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:22 am
SiNcE_1985 wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:52 am You are insinuating that there is no correlation between brainwashing/indoctrination, and critical thinking and reasoning skills.
Correct, there isn't.

Brainwashing and indoctrination tend to be uncritical endeavors where people (especially children) are simply asked to believe something. When we are young we tend to trust those who care for us and thus believe what they tell us. If we aren't taught how to think critically, then we are missing a skill in our toolbox of learning.

It's analogous to learning by rote (memorization) versus understanding how to arrive at the answer yourself. In fact it's exactly this.

Example:

7 x 3 = 21

Do you teach children to memorize this and that's it? That's uncritical thinking and simply being asked to believe what they are told is the right answer.

Instead, after showing the above equation, they should be taught how to come to the answer themselves so that they can answer 9 x 4, 16 x 23, and every other multiplication themselves. They should be given every tool and a full understanding of what it is they are learning about.

Now, don't get me wrong. Once you understand the entire process and what it actually means, then by all means memorize SOME basic things to make your life easier. You probably don't want to engage in counting toes or other simplistic methods that may have been used to demonstrate the concept and what's happening :)
I simply disagree.
That's nice. Care to show readers why or are you going to just hope they fall into the camp where people should just uncritically believe what you say?
I already explained why, and if readers refuse to rock with my POV, I won't lose any sleep over it.
While I'm aware of the 'Just say no' campaigns of the past I'm not sure how this is helping your case.

I've already made it very clear that simple brainwashing and/or child indoctrination are NOT the best way to teach children about truth.
We'll just have to disagree.
Just like a broken analog watch is right twice a day, that doesn't mean it's useful most of the time or the best way of accomplishing something.

Can brainwashing and indoctrination work? Sure it can, it's the lazy way to play on emotions rather than using a superior method of teaching. That's why it's employed and heavily relied on when the actual truth is often far different that what is being pushed.

I think it's quite telling when a religious person is promoting brainwashing and/or indoctrination. We all know these are the methods heavily used in religious teaching. Critical thinking is often very frowned upon. Sure, they will encourage questions, but only to a point. Once things become inconvenient or start displaying obvious faults, it's back to 'Just believe me!'.
Opinions.
I felt a small ripple in the time/space continuum when we both agreed on something :)
Welcome to 1%.
If it's a proper biology class you explain what the theory is and the methods that were used to arrive at the current understanding. You explain how to examine the data and compare things between different organisms. You usually have lab work where you get to start looking at things yourself. If the students have questions like "isn't this just conjecture?" then the teacher hopefully gives them homework to find and study the data themselves (with some help on where to get started of course).
All of that, and it still wouldn't get you to "evolution is true".
Granted, it likely won't be until university level that you can do DNA experiments yourself as this requires equipment beyond what most earlier education classrooms have.
DNA doesn't even get you to "evolution is true".
However, you can certainly look at all the data that was collected and peer reviewed. There are tools available to anyone to further examine this collected data. Difflugia has a thread in the Science and Religion sub forum on this very thing: [Let's prove evolution!]

If at any point students think they are just being forced to believe what they are told, they are encouraged to acquire all the skills necessary and perform the experiments themselves. Again, that will likely involve many more years of learning as we didn't discover DNA sequences overnight. However, at no point are students expected to 'just believe'. They are expected to understand what the material is and what would be required to falsify the theory. They are then free, even encouraged, to research and find some data that will modify any existing scientific theory.
Voodoo science.
Claim with zero substance. Care to share with readers (and the entire scientific community) your methodology and data for peer review? You might have a Nobel prize waiting for you if you can knock down the current theory of evolution. Given that at this point it's essentially fact (like the earth is round), most research is around finer details. Just like the earth isn't a perfect sphere, there are further details upon closer examination, but it all starts with what is now a basic fact.
Not now.
I have no problem if someone is unsure about what the science says or what it means. However, people simply claiming (uncritically and essentially making an emotional appeal) that something is true or not is unlikely to sway readers.
I agree.
Great! This must mean you did it then. Where is your methodology and data published? Did it pass peer review?
My methodology is a lifetime of seeing animals only producing what they are, not what they aren't.

So, my methodology is "sight/vision", based on what I observe.

And all of my "peers" have "reviewed" the same thing in their lifetime.

So my "methodology" has passed "peer review".
Fast? Sorry that was too fast for you. It's called building a case.
Oh, is that what it is?
Step one: You agreed that Christianity is based on Judaism. So one other religion is part of the makeup of Christianity. Step two: Lets find another religion that's in the mix. I'm guessing at this point you realize where this is going and have to start finding out how to pick up those goal posts and start shifting them around.
Obviously, I am willing to grant that Christianity derived from Judaism.

Nothing beyond that though.
So you are telling us all you haven't bothered to look? Well, I'm not doing your homework for you.
Well, I'll make it easier for both of us; you asked if I knew any earlier religions that had a figure dying and coming back to life.

My answer: No, not under the same circumstances as the Jesus figure in Christianity.

So my answer is no.

End of discussion.
Readers who are curious are already looking and I'm betting the case is starting to build against your position for those who may have been on the fence or unaware.
?
I already have more than that. Judaism. That was step one. Remember the claim that was made and that you dismissed and said you would ride a pig? All we have to do is show that Christianity is built on more than one previous religious idea and we should be expecting you to go for a pig ride if you really are a person of your word.
Usually, when naysayers accuse Christianity of "borrowing from other religions", Judaism isn't included in those "other" religions, because it is granted that everyone knows that this is the case so there is no point of contention.

I'm not arguing against that point.
Now you are realizing that there are many other previous religious ideas pulled into Christianity and busily trying to sweep them away.
We've only discussed one. What else you got?
It's ok. We are not really trying to convince you, though it sure would be fun to watch you ride that pig. We are simply building a case for readers to examine.

Step three (for readers, since you are stuck on step two and have some homework): What is the earliest version of a creation story we are aware of that is very similar to the two versions of creation we have in Genesis?
Show me another creation story where a God, who did not begin to exist, created the universe, the animals, and mankind in 6 days.
Step four: What is the earliest global flood story we are aware of?
Tell us.
I think that right there is enough to satisfy the original claim that Christianity is essentially a mish mash of previous religious ideas. Once readers have done their homework I'm betting many will be expecting a pig ride from a certain someone.
Notice that no specifics are given. You are on a roll, benchwarmer. So, let this hot streak continue...since you act like you are so mindful of "readers", share with the readers your source for the stuff you speak of!!

Don't do it for me, do it for your beloved "readers".
By rejecting established science, evolution deniers place themselves in a position of power. Suddenly they feel like they are the experts, and that is a good feeling. Why would they not want to maintain that feeling?
Readers, ask yourselves if that is more likely what is going on here compared to our friend actually understand the theory and the evidence for evolution better than those that have dedicated their lives.

Look at the counter arguments in this post alone:
I simply disagree.
I already explained why, and if readers refuse to rock with my POV, I won't lose any sleep over it.
We'll just have to disagree.
Opinions.
DNA doesn't even get you to "evolution is true".
Voodoo science.
My methodology is a lifetime of seeing animals only producing what they are, not what they aren't.
(Obvious lack of understanding about the actual theory going on here).
Show me another creation story where a God, who did not begin to exist, created the universe, the animals, and mankind in 6 days.

Also consider this. If evolution were shown to be incorrect, who cares! I don't have a dog in the fight and would love to hear the mechanism that better explains what we observe.
Compare that to religious beliefs where eternal souls are on the line and wonder if there is motivation to reject established science. Obviously there is motivation for religious people and most religious people seem to pretend that people are tied to evolution in the same way they are their creation stories. This is not the case. Nothing is lost if evolution is demonstrated to not be the best explanation. No eternal soul, no loss of a god concept, eternal bliss or way to see dead loved ones. Just a better explanation which would be desired. I don't think that most religious people understand this.

Nothing is lost if evolution is shown to be false (not my pig, not my farm).
Now if a creation story is shown to be false, that's a loss of the farm and the pig (motivation to deny the experts).
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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #253

Post by William »

Image
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An immaterial nothing creating a material something is as logically sound as square circles and married bachelors.


Unjustified Fact Claim(UFC) example - belief (of any sort) based on personal subjective experience. (Belief-based belief)
Justified Fact Claim(JFC) Example, The Earth is spherical in shape. (Knowledge-based belief)
Irrefutable Fact Claim (IFC) Example Humans in general experience some level of self-awareness. (Knowledge-based knowledge)

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #254

Post by Diogenes »

Realworldjack wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:13 pm I not only will not argue against what is said above, I will be glad to acknowledge it. The question is what does one imagine this demonstrates, other than most folks do not think critically about what they were taught as a child?

Good questions. Yes, we agree, "Most folks do not think critically about what they were taught as a child."
Most probably do not think critically about such things. Acceptance is the path of least resistance.

At the very least these facts demonstrate that people of whatever faith pledge allegiance and claim to believe because of tradition, not because of the demonstrated truth of those beliefs.. There are millions, if not billions of people who believe in religious claims that are irreconcilable with other beliefs also based mainly on childhood indoctrination.

There are other reasons for belief, or for the continued belief. One is comfort, another inertia. Business connections is another. A sense of belonging or family is part of it. But what is glaringly missing as a reason for belief is evidence.

My suggestion for the strongest reason to believe is to avoid existential pain, the awful solitariness of existence, the terror of ultimately being alone, then gone. We live we die and are no more. This is a hard truth to accept. From it we make our own meaning, but it is all transitory and meaningless. Faith provides an apparent antidote, but the truth remains.

"What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.”
__ James 4:14

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #255

Post by Realworldjack »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #254]
Most probably do not think critically about such things. Acceptance is the path of least resistance.
Do you really believe that most folks never think critically at all about the faith they inherited? I would think that most all folks have faced some sort of doubt about what it is they have inherited. In fact, I would suggest that most folks have asked themselves the same questions, and, or objections which are posed on this site. The problem is, many of these folks simply suppress these doubts, instead of attempting to resolve them one way or the other. As you say, "acceptance is the path of least resistance" which means one does not have to wrestle with what it is they claim to believe.
At the very least these facts demonstrate that people of whatever faith pledge allegiance and claim to believe because of tradition, not because of the demonstrated truth of those beliefs..
I am not thinking this is "at the very least". Rather, I am thinking that this is all that it demonstrates. It certainly does not have anything at all to do with the belief being true or false. This is the problem I have with those who want to bring this sort of thing into the conversation. You have many on this site who seem to want to proudly proclaim they were convinced Christians at one time, who did not use the mind in order to be convinced, and it is when they begin to use the mind which was the cause of their rejection of Christianity. I have no doubt they were once a convinced Christian, and I have no doubt they did not use the mind in order to be convinced. I can tell they did not think very much when they were a Christian, simply by reading what they have to say about Christianity. In other words, it is clear they did not have a very good understanding of Christianity, more than likely because they simply took the word of others, who took the word of others, and you end up with a whole bunch of Christians who have no idea what it is they believe, nor why they believe it. But the thing is if one did not use the mind in order to be convinced of something of such magnitude, then it very well may be the case that it did not take a whole lot of thinking in order to reject what one had been taught. In fact, it seems to me many times, that most of these folks reject Christianity simply upon the grounds that they never really used the mind in order to be convinced, and they realize most Christians do not use the mind, and this somehow convinces them that this would have something to do with the claims of the resurrection being false, when it has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

These folks then come to sites like this, and begin to make the most elementary arguments, which are arguments any thinking person at all would have already thought through. Examples of this would be to compare Christianity to other religions, and to make the argument that most folks adhere to the religion of their location, and how lucky one is to have been born into the region of the world which just so happens to have the correct religion. The thing is, they will make such arguments as if they are powerful arguments, and they act as if they are the first to think of such a thing, when I cannot imagine any thinking person at all not thinking through such a thing. I also cannot imagine any thinking person even attempting to make such an argument, because it really is no argument at all, and has no bearing upon the truth of the matter. This goes as well for the point that "people of whatever faith pledge allegiance and claim to believe because of tradition, not because of the demonstrated truth of those beliefs". This is a fact which I agree with 100% but I fail to see any point being made other than, "people of whatever faith pledge allegiance and claim to believe because of tradition, not because of the demonstrated truth of those beliefs". It certainly does not have any sort of bearing upon whether said belief is false. It is like the argument is, if I say, "I believe the sun is stationary", and someone were to ask me why I believe this to be the case, and I go on to say, "because this is what I was told", this would only demonstrate that I really have no good reasons to believe as I do concerning the sun, but what I believe is still correct. The point is, simply because one may not have good reasons to believe as they do, does not in any way demonstrate there would be no good reasons to believe as they do.

My thing is, it does not matter to me whether one is a Christian or not, there is no way one can sit down in order to determine what all would have to be involved in order for the claims of the resurrection to be true, as opposed to what all would have to be involved in order for the claims to be false, and come away believing there are some sort of easy answers. If one can do such a thing, then this sort of demonstrates one who is not using the mind. It is like, when they were Christians, it was all so easy then, and now that they have rejected Christianity it is still all so easy. Again, there is no way one can sit down in order to understand what all would have to be involved in order for the claims to be true, as opposed to what all would have to be involved in order for the claims to be false, and come away believing it is all so simple, other than a simple mind.

This is the exact reason I have no problem with those who doubt, and, or do not believe. The problem comes in when these same folks want to insist there are no reasons to believe the claims of the resurrection, and, or there is no evidence in support. Such a one must be in an alternative reality, or they are simply choosing to believe what it is they would rather believe. In other words, there is no difference between such a one, and the Christian who simply chooses to believe what they would rather believe, for whatever lame reason they choose to believe it.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #256

Post by Diogenes »

Realworldjack wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:14 pm Do you really believe that most folks never think critically at all about the faith they inherited?
No...
Tho' it might come down to the quantification of "most."
Depending on where one draws that line, I agree that most people do not think critically about anything, or at least anything abstract.

I don't base this on any claim of scientific evidence. My belief is only based on personal experience... on repeatedly detecting complete non interest in anything less concrete than money, football, cars, or women. I would say that men, more often than women, demonstrate indifference to philosophical issues. On the other hand, I agree that most people today give some considerable thought to questions of religion and politics. I simply doubt their inquiries are either vigorous or objective.

There are many countries, even today, where 90% or more of their respective populations have faith in the same religion. Sometimes it is Islam, sometimes Christian, some countries Buddhist, others Hindu. How can such a statistic be based on anything as much as,
"This is the tradition I was raised in. My parents believed. I believe.
My thing is, it does not matter to me whether one is a Christian or not, there is no way one can sit down in order to determine what all would have to be involved in order for the claims of the resurrection to be true, as opposed to what all would have to be involved in order for the claims to be false, and come away believing there are some sort of easy answers. If one can do such a thing, then this sort of demonstrates one who is not using the mind. It is like, when they were Christians, it was all so easy then, and now that they have rejected Christianity it is still all so easy. Again, there is no way one can sit down in order to understand what all would have to be involved in order for the claims to be true, as opposed to what all would have to be involved in order for the claims to be false, and come away believing it is all so simple, other than a simple mind.
You've structured your analysis with this metric:
"...there is no way one can sit down in order to determine what all would have to be involved in order for the claims...."

That is a very different perspective than that of the scientist or historian. MY perspective is that there are and have been millions of goofy, strange, unsubstantiated, fantastic, ridiculous and absurd claims and beliefs thru the recorded centuries.

The ONLY epistemology I know of that is reliable and self corrective is science... empirical observation and deduction. So... it is not a question of whether or not (and why) one believes in Christianity. It is a false dichotomy to balance Christianity vs reality. The question should be "Is there any evidence of ANYTHING other than what we can rationally detect thru our senses and instruments?"

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #257

Post by marke »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:04 pm In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
Christians are not made Christians by natural birth or family ties, but by repenting of sins and finding forgiveness in Jesus.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #258

Post by Realworldjack »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #256]
You've structured your analysis with this metric:
"...there is no way one can sit down in order to determine what all would have to be involved in order for the claims...."
That is a very different perspective than that of the scientist or historian.
I am afraid not my friend. There are qualified historians which tell us we can know from what has been contained in the NT that the early followers of Jesus truly believed what they were reporting concerning the resurrection. They come to such conclusions because the evidence is overwhelming. This fact does not demonstrate the resurrection, but this fact certainly demands some sort of explanation. The question is, what would cause these folks to be truly convinced that Jesus rose from the grave? If one sits down in order to determine what all would have to be involved for this to be the case, they will have to come away understanding there are no easy answers, unless of course, they are satisfied with easy answers.
The ONLY epistemology I know of that is reliable and self corrective is science... empirical observation and deduction.
You certainly demonstrate a whole lot of faith in science. I am a fan of science myself, but I understand it's limitations. Science cannot tell us if the resurrection occurred or not, because this sort of thing would be outside the realm of science. Science can only tell us that a resurrection is scientifically impossible. However, simply because an event is demonstrated to be scientifically impossible, does not demonstrate that such an event could not, or has not occurred. This would only tell us that if such an event occurred, science would not be able to explain it.
"Is there any evidence of ANYTHING other than what we can rationally detect thru our senses and instruments?"
As demonstrated above, historians use their senses and instruments to come to the conclusion that the early followers of Jesus truly believed what they reported to the point they tell us, this is something we can know.

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #259

Post by oldbadger »

marke wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 5:27 am
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:04 pm In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
Christians are not made Christians by natural birth or family ties, but by repenting of sins and finding forgiveness in Jesus.
No....I don't think that the above is generally correct.

Most Christians have held in to what was around them during infancy and childhood.

The 'repenting and finding forgiveness' idea is very popular, I expect, but I don't think it makes that much difference....do you?

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Re: Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

Post #260

Post by marke »

oldbadger wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 11:47 am
marke wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 5:27 am
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:04 pm In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:
When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.
This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
Christians are not made Christians by natural birth or family ties, but by repenting of sins and finding forgiveness in Jesus.
No....I don't think that the above is generally correct.

Most Christians have held in to what was around them during infancy and childhood.

The 'repenting and finding forgiveness' idea is very popular, I expect, but I don't think it makes that much difference....do you?
Marke: I was brought up in a Southern Baptist home to believe the Bible but I did not get saved until I was 18 years old and what I came to believe and understand after I got saved was quite different than what I believed as a child.

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