JWs and Contradition

[POI]

The JW.org website states they are not antiscience. This sounds like a rational position. (i.e.):

"Although Jehovahs Witnesses believe in creation, we are not antiscience. We believe that true science and the Bible are compatible."

JW.org also states:

"Evil and suffering. These began when one of Gods angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called "Satan" and "Devil," persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever."

For debate: If no evil/suffering existed before the "fall of man", then why do we have evidence that evil/suffering existed prior to the fall of man?

Receipts #1: Dinosaurs exists prior to humans. Fossils exist, of dinosaurs sustaining injury:(http://www.forbes.com/sites/shaenamonta ... 28ccf42e8c)

Receipt #2: More dinosaur suffering: (https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ing-about/)

[POI]

. (see post #15: viewtopic.php?p=1157826#p1157826)

Reference corrected in edit ( post #12).

????????

[Diogenes]

DOES THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS WEBSITE COMMENT ON POSSIBLE SUFFERING OF DINOSAURS ?

No. Other than acknowledging their existence , the Jehovahs Witness makes no comment on the health of dinosaurs. ....

Hilariously inconsistent, armed with their usual disdain for science and truth, JW's admit the existence of dinosaurs while denying evolution. That ANYONE would take their nonsense seriously only brands them as [to put it mildly] uneducated.

[TRANSPONDER]

DOES THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS WEBSITE COMMENT ON POSSIBLE SUFFERING OF DINOSAURS ?

No. Other than acknowledging their existence , the Jehovahs Witness makes no comment on the health of dinosaurs. ....

Hilariously inconsistent, armed with their usual disdain for science and truth, JW's admit the existence of dinosaurs while denying evolution. That ANYONE would take their nonsense seriously only brands them as [to put it mildly] uneducated.

Hilariously. I don't know whether it was JWs first started YE Creationism, but I know that's what they teach as the stock creationist lies were played to me on a smartphone by a propaganda peddlar who came to the door. Most people would not have been able to see through the string of lies.

But the story, even if one considers it, suspending disbelief, doesn't make a lot of sense, or at least makes God look very good, morally. If man was made immortal, why would animals and the rest of creation be made mortal? If death (losing imortality) only entered the world through Man sinning, why was death the end for the rest of the animals?

Some creationists have bitten the bullet and claimed that man sinned and brought the rest of creation down as well, so God was justified in destroying all his creation. It wasn't coherent or even necessary. It makes absolutely no sense.

[JehovahsWitness]

. (see post #15: viewtopic.php?p=1157826#p1157826)

Reference corrected in edit ( post #12).

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I put the wrong link in the original post. NOTE is the correction.


JW

[POI]

. (see post #15: viewtopic.php?p=1157826#p1157826)

Reference corrected in edit ( post #12).

????????

I put the wrong link in the original post. NOTE is the correction.


JW

In my OP, the quoted description shows animals and humans in the picture - (next to point 8. about 'evil and suffering'). --> (http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses ... cq8kB7u1Nw). Neither the animals or the humans look to be suffering in the picture, as the description about 'evil and suffering' speaks about when suffering began. The explanation does not speak about HUMAN specific suffering; just suffering. The picture from the link emphasizes the description. This means 'evil and suffering' was not only confined to humans, but to all. Therefore, since the JWs are not antiscience, contradiction exists. I've supplied proof that dinosaurs suffered. And JWs have to acknowledge that dinosaurs existed and also went extinct way before humans were ever around.

Further, why do animals/creatures/etc have to suffer anyways?

[TRANSPONDER]

Indeed. The fossil evidence is that dinosaurs suffered. But it makes no sense at all that God created a world where humans were going to be immortal and without evil or suferring, but all the rest of creation died and was subject to the evils and suffering that came on man after the fall.

It makes more sense that God made His Creation good (it says so - doesn't say God created the animals, fruit and veg evil)

misery - "We're miserable; so are the animals, so are the vegetables" (misery farm)

And it makes more sense that when Adam fell, he brought all of creation down with him, and all the dinosaur suffering was after the fall and before a random few Dino Baryma were herded onto the Ark

Anyone, JW or other who tries to argue that God's cration was imperfect, flawed and with suffering before the fall is on a very sticky wicket indeed.

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS WEBSITE COMMENT ON POSSIBLE SUFFERING OF DINOSAURS ?

No. Other than acknowledging their existence , the Jehovahs Witness makes no comment on the health of dinosaurs.



DOES THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF JWs INDICATE IN ANY WAY THAT DINOSAURS MAY INDEED HAVE SUFFERED PRIOR TO THE ORIGINAL SIN?

Yes, since the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that animals were not purposed to live forever, their belief system holds that all animals would have been subject of the natural cycle of birth - aging- - death. Death and (as was the case for dinosaurs) extinction are arguably at the very least distressing. Although not explicitly stated, their beliefs are a de facto acknowledgement of dinosaurs "suffering" in some way before the fall.

* Jehovahs Witnesses hold that God is loving and kind and would not have designed a system where any of his creatures suffered prolonged, excessive and excrutiating pain.


IS THE ABOVE NOT AN ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE EXISTNCE OF SIN AND EVIL AT THAT TIME ?

No because any theoretical "animal suffering" incurred from injury or aging would according to the JW teachings be part of a natural cycle designed by God not caused by sin or evil.

DOES THIS NOT CONTRADICT THE TEACHING THAT SUFFERING BEGAN WITH SIN?

No. The JWs website states explicitly that when they use the term "suffering" in connection with its origins, they are speaking about HUMAN SUFFERING caused by imperfection, sin or evil. (see post #12: viewtopic.php?p=1157783#p1157783). There are absolutely no comments in any JW literature admitting (or denying) the existence of any possible pain or suffering experienced by animals prior to the fall of man; to therefore suggest a contradiction is present when no statement has been made on the subject, is an argument from silence.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


FURTHER READING A Life Without PainIs It Really Possible?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101978001



RELATED POSTS

To what does the Jehovahs Witness website refer when it uses the term "suffering"?
viewtopic.php?p=1157783#p1157783

Is there any statement from the Jehovahs Witness leadership that no physical pain or distress was experiences by any animals prior to the fall into sin?
viewtopic.php?p=1157764#p1157764

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time?
viewtopic.php?p=1157715#p1157715

[JehovahsWitness]

Misplaced post (apologies) .

[TRANSPONDER]

Ok. Thank you. That is a fair argument. How about immortality? Will humans who live on the earth get Adam's immortality back? If not, what good is this God who cannot or will not remove the curse of sin - death (of course you may claim that Adam was never immortal)l But if so, don't the animals and carrots get to be immortal too? Do the carnivores all get to be vegetarian again? And, if so can't we conclude that this was how it was before the fall, which is whg hat I have been arguing?

Incidentally, I am not impressed by a link to the OP, which i found was saying yoiu wanted to preach JW propaganda, not discus anything.

[POI]

DOES THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS WEBSITE COMMENT ON POSSIBLE SUFFERING OF DINOSAURS ?

No. Other than acknowledging their existence , the Jehovahs Witness makes no comment on the health of dinosaurs.

I've already spoke to this. The emphasis is placed on humans, not any and every other species.

We have evidence that dinosaurs suffered. We also have evidence that dinosaurs went extinct well before humans were around. We also have direct evidence that the 'Watch Tower" tells readers that no suffering existed before the fall of Adam and Eve. Your publication does not allude to the suffering of humans alone. Which makes sense, as the suffering of animals would make no sense regardless, other than to blame it on humans. All this is damning to your religion. Sorry!

* Jehovahs Witnesses hold that God is loving and kind and would not have designed a system where any of his creatures suffered prolonged, excessive and excrutiating pain.

Then Jehovahs Witnesses hold to an incorrect set of beliefs. Dinosaurs clearly experienced prolonged suffering, and excessive and excruciating pain. See the original links for proof.

DOES THIS NOT CONTRADICT THE TEACHING THAT SUFFERING BEGAN WITH SIN?

No. The JWs website states explicitly that when they use the term "suffering" in connection with its origins, they are speaking about HUMAN SUFFERING

I've already spoke to this... If the publication was speaking about human suffering alone, it would say so. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. In the past, you have attempted to shut down other's interpretations, based upon technicalities. If the publication does not specify human suffering, while also showing both humans and other species in a picture next to the given explanation, then the description is clearly speaking about all conscious suffering. But nice try.

Hence, JW's have to live with this contradiction.