Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[TRANSPONDER]

...And all of you have read your Bibles. This tells me the message is NOT clear.

If you think Bible message is not clear, please give one example of it that is unclear to you.

I don't think you have understood my answer correctly. I don't say "Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short".

You told me your answer was A). Would you like to change it now?

My answer is just Unconditional grace, without your additions.

Your answer is Not Unconditional Grace, unless you want to change your mind. Your Condition as i recall is that humans must behaved morally (following God's word or make that Jesus' word(, thus we have a condition. I suppose you could argue that God Could forgive even someone who does not observe God's word, and i recall that you seem to have altered your stance on whether those who 'do God's word' (moral actions) even if they haven't ever heard of God or Jesus and that Deeds do not save, but Godfaith is needed.

So we seem to have Conditions, even if they are only conditions that God imposes on whether a person can be saved or not.

But fact is, pal 1213, you have been a superb example of what is wrong with Religious thinking for a long, long time since.

[1213]

Your answer is Not Unconditional Grace, unless you want to change your mind. Your Condition as i recall is that humans must behaved morally (following God's word or make that Jesus' word(, thus we have a condition. I suppose you could argue that God Could forgive even someone who does not observe God's word, and i recall that you seem to have altered your stance on whether those who 'do God's word' (moral actions) even if they haven't ever heard of God or Jesus and that Deeds do not save, but Godfaith is needed.

So we seem to have Conditions, even if they are only conditions that God imposes on whether a person can be saved or not.

But fact is, pal 1213, you have been a superb example of what is wrong with Religious thinking for a long, long time since.

Your straw man arguments shows nicely that you have no good arguments for your case. Maybe you should read what I say, instead of making up stuff.

[TRANSPONDER]

Your answer is Not Unconditional Grace, unless you want to change your mind. Your Condition as i recall is that humans must behaved morally (following God's word or make that Jesus' word(, thus we have a condition. I suppose you could argue that God Could forgive even someone who does not observe God's word, and i recall that you seem to have altered your stance on whether those who 'do God's word' (moral actions) even if they haven't ever heard of God or Jesus and that Deeds do not save, but Godfaith is needed.

So we seem to have Conditions, even if they are only conditions that God imposes on whether a person can be saved or not.

But fact is, pal 1213, you have been a superb example of what is wrong with Religious thinking for a long, long time since.

Your straw man arguments shows nicely that you have no good arguments for your case. Maybe you should read what I say, instead of making up stuff.

You give yourself away again. 'Strawman argument; in Theist parlance means 'an argument i don't like'. I set out the implications of what you wrote and you dismiss it rather than correct or explain. I referred back to what you previously have posted, which you don't seem to remember yourself, and you appear to wabble on whether it is faith or works that qualifies a one to be saved (aside the point that it is God who does the actual saving). You have the opportunity to explain or clarify, but you prefer the miserable evasive dismissal. Very poor work.

[POI]

List of options:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
Post 916: 1213 answer B)
Post 920: Capbook answer D)

[POI]

Your answer is Not Unconditional Grace, unless you want to change your mind. Your Condition as i recall is that humans must behaved morally (following God's word or make that Jesus' word(, thus we have a condition. I suppose you could argue that God Could forgive even someone who does not observe God's word, and i recall that you seem to have altered your stance on whether those who 'do God's word' (moral actions) even if they haven't ever heard of God or Jesus and that Deeds do not save, but Godfaith is needed.

So we seem to have Conditions, even if they are only conditions that God imposes on whether a person can be saved or not.

But fact is, pal 1213, you have been a superb example of what is wrong with Religious thinking for a long, long time since.

Your straw man arguments shows nicely that you have no good arguments for your case. Maybe you should read what I say, instead of making up stuff.

Unconditional grace, or answer A), would include everyone on planet earth. Otherwise, it would no longer be unconditional.

Thus far, you have demonstrated answer B), the condition of 'righteousness' and/or 'belief' -- based upon Romans 3 and 4.

[TRANSPONDER]

Your answer is Not Unconditional Grace, unless you want to change your mind. Your Condition as i recall is that humans must behaved morally (following God's word or make that Jesus' word(, thus we have a condition. I suppose you could argue that God Could forgive even someone who does not observe God's word, and i recall that you seem to have altered your stance on whether those who 'do God's word' (moral actions) even if they haven't ever heard of God or Jesus and that Deeds do not save, but Godfaith is needed.

So we seem to have Conditions, even if they are only conditions that God imposes on whether a person can be saved or not.

But fact is, pal 1213, you have been a superb example of what is wrong with Religious thinking for a long, long time since.

Your straw man arguments shows nicely that you have no good arguments for your case. Maybe you should read what I say, instead of making up stuff.

Unconditional grace, or answer A), would include everyone on planet earth. Otherwise, it would no longer be unconditional.

Thus far, you have demonstrated answer B), the condition of 'righteousness' and/or 'belief' -- based upon Romans 3 and 4.

Arguably so. But I can already think of Conditions applying. That might seem contradictory, but donning by black, tatty and mildewed theist hat which makes the sorting hat look positively smart, I say the grace is unconditional, but it must be earned.

No I don't buy that either.

The problem is that Heaven and hell is - as the mustwatch b video (1) a small idea. Morals aside, how can anyone judge between an eternity of heaven and an eternity of hell, in respect to two people, one who maybe did one more kind deed than the dammned soul next to him? Never mind an eternity of hevaen would become torment after a billion years (though one poster suggested one could stand it for ETERNITY taking it one day at a time.

To which I say - give me the atheists option, thanks. tempting though a bespoke paradise might be. Another video? Why not



Point is...Theism itself find heaven and hell insupportable as well as unsupportable, so they invented UR - everyone gets saved, either with the Unconditional grace (which means religion isn't necessary) or some kind of purgatory - for everyone, not just the faithful, which is just as well if the Muslims are right.

(1) I'll post it again for some new viewers - the believers who most need to watch it declare they never watch anything that might question their faith.

[1213]

...I set out the implications of what you wrote and you dismiss it rather than correct or explain...

I think I have explained it several times, but you don't seem to read or understand it. I don't see much reason to repeat it many times.

I referred back to what you previously have posted, which you don't seem to remember yourself, and you appear to wabble on whether it is faith or works that qualifies a one to be saved (aside the point that it is God who does the actual saving). You have the opportunity to explain or clarify, but you prefer the miserable evasive dismissal. Very poor work.

But, because you insist, here is it once more:

1) Saving means person is saved from the judgment that would come because of sin.
2) Grace means God is merciful and forgives sin.
3) The forgiveness is offered freely for everyone, no work, or anything required.
4) Forgiveness gives a new clean beginning. If after that you go back to sin, the forgiveness was not useful, because you have a new sin.

That should not be mixed up with the idea of who gets eternal life. According to the Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous. This is why, after forgiveness, it would be good, if person becomes righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Righteous means wisdom of the just, which could be said also, right understanding. If person has that right understanding, it will be visible also in the actions of the person. Faithfulness (loyalty) is also an action.

Here is few examples of what it means when person is righteous:

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace.
Prov. 13:5
…He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:10-14

[TRANSPONDER]

...I set out the implications of what you wrote and you dismiss it rather than correct or explain...

I think I have explained it several times, but you don't seem to read or understand it. I don't see much reason to repeat it many times.

I referred back to what you previously have posted, which you don't seem to remember yourself, and you appear to wabble on whether it is faith or works that qualifies a one to be saved (aside the point that it is God who does the actual saving). You have the opportunity to explain or clarify, but you prefer the miserable evasive dismissal. Very poor work.

But, because you insist, here is it once more:

1) Saving means person is saved from the judgment that would come because of sin.
2) Grace means God is merciful and forgives sin.
3) The forgiveness is offered freely for everyone, no work, or anything required.
4) Forgiveness gives a new clean beginning. If after that you go back to sin, the forgiveness was not useful, because you have a new sin.

That should not be mixed up with the idea of who gets eternal life. According to the Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous. This is why, after forgiveness, it would be good, if person becomes righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Righteous means wisdom of the just, which could be said also, right understanding. If person has that right understanding, it will be visible also in the actions of the person. Faithfulness (loyalty) is also an action.

Here is few examples of what it means when person is righteous:

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace.
Prov. 13:5
…He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:10-14

That's what I thought, and appears to be your problem, and what I was querying. Unconditional grace (if forgiveness) shoule be unconditionally open to all. This medans we all get saved and there is no need for God, Jesus or Bible.]]If there are things one g has to do, good deeds, Jesusfaith or 'obeying God's words, then there are conditions.

We already did Belief in God or God's word (Like Abraham) which of course required Faith in God, His word, and his Book/religion, without even getting to Jesus and whetheer that inclused Jews and Muslims or not.

You are in a logical mess, and just throwing random and irrelevant Biblequotes won't get you out of it, nor will evasion, denial or accusations, if those options were tempting you.

[armchairscholar]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

My view is that salvation comes through a combination of God's grace, faith, and works. This view, known as synergism, has been the consistent teaching of the Church since its earliest days.

But I understand why there's confusion. The Protestant Reformation, particularly Luther's emphasis on "sola fide" (faith alone), introduced a major divergence in Christian thought on this matter. As a historian, I can trace how this schism has led to the variety of perspectives you're encountering today.

Psychologically I find it fascinating how different individuals and groups interpret scripture and tradition to support their views. It speaks to our human need for certainty and our tendency to seek simple answers to complex questions.

In my view, the Catholic position offers the most comprehensive understanding of salvation. It recognizes God's primacy in the process (grace), our necessary response (faith), and the fruits of that faith (works). This holistic approach aligns with what I've observed in human behavior - our actions tend to flow from our beliefs, and our beliefs are shaped by our experiences of grace.

The "faith alone" position, while appealing in its simplicity, seems to downplay the importance of how faith manifests in our lives. Similarly, a "works alone" approach neglects the transformative power of grace and faith.

That said, I'm acutely aware that people's beliefs about salvation are often deeply rooted in their personal experiences, cultural background, and emotional needs. It's a sensitive topic that touches on our deepest hopes and fears.

What are your thoughts on this? I'd be interested to hear your perspective and experiences with this debate.

[Tcg]

My view is that salvation comes through a combination of God's grace, faith, and works. This view, known as synergism, has been the consistent teaching of the Church since its earliest days.

Is this suggesting that you know the view the Church held prior to the creation of any of the N.T. texts?

In any case, can you provide evidence to support your claim?

Tcg